From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Jan 03 08:15:58 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 03 Jan 2010 08:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NRT7V-0003kr-CK for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Jan 2010 08:15:57 -0800 Received: from imr-ma03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.41]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NRT7H-0003gs-OC for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Jan 2010 08:15:48 -0800 Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-ma03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o03GFU2t014325 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2010 11:15:30 -0500 Received: from Thirderivative@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id d.c50.61a1331b (43815) for ; Sun, 3 Jan 2010 11:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-mb03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mb03.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.150]) by cia-dc01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADC014-5c774b40c29c1ad; Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:15:26 -0500 Received: from webmail-d065 (webmail-d065.sim.aol.com [205.188.59.130]) by smtprly-mb03.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMB036-5c774b40c29c1ad; Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:15:24 -0500 References: To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Initial impression Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:15:24 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 76.8.216.14 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Seth X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CC5AA71727506D_8FA8_3E083_webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 30109-STANDARD Received: from 76.8.216.14 by webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com (205.188.59.130) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:15:24 -0500 Message-Id: <8CC5AA7171DCAE9-8FA8-1F578@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Thirderivative@aol.com X-archive-position: 16761 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: thirderivative@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ----------MB_8CC5AA71727506D_8FA8_3E083_webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" right on many points, my friend. welcome to Lojban, it is an amazing lang= uage. If you have good ideas for an improved orthography, design one. Ther= e have been several original orthographies produced, and more are always= welcome until the community finds one they love. seryf =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Klaus F. Abel To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Sun, Jan 3, 2010 3:55 am Subject: [lojban] Initial impression Dear friends,=20 =20 A happy new year to everybody!=20 =20 I just discovered this site and find it really exciting. As a computer pro= grammer, the idea of a completely parseable human language sounds ingeniou= s. I'll definitely want to learn more about Lojban.=20 =20 My native language is German, I'm fluent in English and Esperanto, have ba= sic knowledge in French, Spanish, Finnish, Russian, and got just a taste= of Chinese.=20 =20 From an initial impression, regarding the chapter on alternative orthogra= phies, it appears to me that development of Lojban is still in flux. Is th= at correct?=20 =20 If yes, I hope it's not a complete heresy to sound off a few spontaneous= dislikes which might put some people off getting friendly with it.=20 =20 1. First, the usage of punctuation marks for pronounciation aides is confu= sing and looks simply ugly. Although this may sound subjective, the develo= pment of our various alphabets has come a long way also in the field of ae= sthetics. Therefore I believe that many would agree in an initial judgment= about a language that deliberately ruptures the image. Punctuation ought= to be reserved for marking various degrees of breaks and pauses in the fl= ux of speech or thought - between words, not within. It adds structure to= written text to make it easier on the eye - remember how it came about,= most ancient and early medieval scripts did not use punctuation at all.= Even if this language uses marker words in its stead, if you want it to= be read by humans and not only by machines, you have to accomodate human= perception to a degree. And the apostrophe represents an omission, either= to indicate sloppy speech, to facilitate rhythm keeping in poetry, or the= like. All these identifications are preoccupied and not easily unlearned.= =20 =20 2. If the apostrophe between vocals stands simply for a spoken 'h' sound,= what's the point of not using the 'h' proper, especially since it is othe= rwise not used at all? The argument of better visibility and greater simpl= icity of the apostrophe is quite subjective and I can't find myself subscr= ibing to it. In that case, why such a privilege for the 'h' sound over any= other? Then a different alphabet should be developed with overall simper= graphics, that would facilitate faster handwriting and easier recognizabi= lity than the Roman letters. Shavian or Shorthand are examples of such an= endeavour.=20 =20 3. Most irritating I find the full stop at the beginning of a word to mark= the glottal stop where a word begins with a vocal. Most languages don't= write the glottal stop at all, but I assume there is a good reason for it= which I will discover when reading on. Maltese is an exception to this,= it uses the 'q' for the glottal stop. As this letter also has been otherw= ise disused for Lojban, it seems just perfect to fill the spot.=20 =20 4. Same goes for the comma in the middle of the word to separate vocals th= at do not form a diphtong. Again the 'q' would seem perfect in its place.= This would introduce different pronounciation rules for the 'q' depending= on its position, but sufficiently simple and unambiguous.=20 =20 5. The forced adding of an 's' (or at least any consonant, if I understand= correctly) to transliterated names that end on a vocal comes across to me= almost as an act of violence against a sacrosanct name, I find it disturb= ing at best. Yet again the 'q' seems the ideal fit for the purpose of fulf= illing the rule that it must end on a consonant. It would not alter the so= und of the spoken name, since it would remain silent as the glottal stop= at the end of a word is not pronounced (hardly doable at all). (Could thi= s possibly create ambiguity in spoken language?)=20 =20 An alternative for the silent consonant could be 'w', as it occurs sometim= es in German (e.g. the name Pankow, a borough of Berlin, is pronounced "pa= =C5=8Bko=CB=90"). From this viewpoint it would be even better suited than= 'q' to replace the midword comma as well.=20 =20 But these issues are honestly just pristine feedback aimed at only serving= the course. I am not aware of others having expressed similar or contrary= thoughts. All in all, I can only laud this project and its creators, wish= ing you great success in the coming year, decade, and beyond.=20 =20 Sincerely,=20 =20 Klaus F. Abel=20 =20 To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org= =20 with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if= =20 you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.=20 =20 ----------MB_8CC5AA71727506D_8FA8_3E083_webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
right on many points, my friend. welcome to Lojban, it is an amazing language. If= you have good ideas for an improved orthography, design one. There have= been several original orthographies produced, and more are always welcome= until the community finds one they love.

seryf


Dear friends, 
 
A happy new year to everybody! 
 
I just discovered this site and find it really exciting. As a computer pro= grammer, the idea of a completely parseable human language sounds ingeniou= s. I'll definitely want to learn more about Lojban. 
 
My native language is German, I'm fluent in English and Esperanto, have ba= sic knowledge in French, Spanish, Finnish, Russian, and got just a taste= of Chinese. 
 
From an initial impression, regarding the chapter on alternative orthogra= phies, it appears to me that development of Lojban is still in flux. Is th= at correct? 
 
If yes, I hope it's not a complete heresy to sound off a few spontaneous= dislikes which might put some people off getting friendly with it. <= br>  
1. First, the usage of punctuation marks for pronounciation aides is confu= sing and looks simply ugly. Although this may sound subjective, the develo= pment of our various alphabets has come a long way also in the field of ae= sthetics. Therefore I believe that many would agree in an initial judgment= about a language that deliberately ruptures the image. Punctuation ought= to be reserved for marking various degrees of breaks and pauses in the fl= ux of speech or thought - between words, not within. It adds structure to= written text to make it easier on the eye - remember how it came about,= most ancient and early medieval scripts did not use punctuation at all.= Even if this language uses marker words in its stead, if you want it to= be read by humans and not only by machines, you have to accomodate human= perception to a degree. And the apostrophe represents an omission, either= to indicate sloppy speech, to facilitate rhythm keeping in poetry, or the= like. All these identifications are preoccupied and not easily unlearned.=  
 
2. If the apostrophe between vocals stands simply for a spoken 'h' sound,= what's the point of not using the 'h' proper, especially since it is othe= rwise not used at all? The argument of better visibility and greater simpl= icity of the apostrophe is quite subjective and I can't find myself subscr= ibing to it. In that case, why such a privilege for the 'h' sound over any= other? Then a different alphabet should be developed with overall simper= graphics, that would facilitate faster handwriting and easier recognizabi= lity than the Roman letters. Shavian or Shorthand are examples of such an= endeavour. 
 
3. Most irritating I find the full stop at the beginning of a word to mark= the glottal stop where a word begins with a vocal. Most languages don't= write the glottal stop at all, but I assume there is a good reason for it= which I will discover when reading on. Maltese is an exception to this,= it uses the 'q' for the glottal stop. As this letter also has been otherw= ise disused for Lojban, it seems just perfect to fill the spot. 
 
4. Same goes for the comma in the middle of the word to separate vocals th= at do not form a diphtong. Again the 'q' would seem perfect in its place.= This would introduce different pronounciation rules for the 'q' depending= on its position, but sufficiently simple and unambiguous. 
 
5. The forced adding of an 's' (or at least any consonant, if I understand= correctly) to transliterated names that end on a vocal comes across to me= almost as an act of violence against a sacrosanct name, I find it disturb= ing at best. Yet again the 'q' seems the ideal fit for the purpose of fulf= illing the rule that it must end on a consonant. It would not alter the so= und of the spoken name, since it would remain silent as the glottal stop= at the end of a word is not pronounced (hardly doable at all). (Could thi= s possibly create ambiguity in spoken language?) 
 
An alternative for the silent consonant could be 'w', as it occurs sometim= es in German (e.g. the name Pankow, a borough of Berlin, is pronounced "pa= =C5=8Bko=CB=90"). From this viewpoint it would be even better suited than= 'q' to replace the midword comma as well. 
 
But these issues are honestly just pristine feedback aimed at only serving= the course. I am not aware of others having expressed similar or contrary= thoughts. All in all, I can only laud this project and its creators, wish= ing you great success in the coming year, decade, and beyond. 
 
Sincerely, 
 
Klaus F. Abel 
 
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org 
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if 
you're really stuck, send mail to = secretary@lojban.org for help. 
 ----------MB_8CC5AA71727506D_8FA8_3E083_webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.