From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 13 08:47:24 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NV6NP-0001CE-OK for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:47:24 -0800 Received: from mail-pz0-f193.google.com ([209.85.222.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NV6N8-00014H-6y for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:47:13 -0800 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so1999085pzk.28 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:46:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=AUn7FpM9DkC+pQkSlRL04qMaFIayfRpRMrSjXWm11n8=; b=ejofDYxLLAQa8PYoXedEMCFLC7oRfyMT2pVyYvOg9sLmU5hMuklRa8QZZ2q+TYXn57 JsXiGfabcip0aNVA600dJMnR0044v4FznxjYrHG5UY9jZUl8LlHQWZPYtgrqwFk17O7n eL/Y7VwLiy6WSzDhiJhO55RVMQ5198zNhKAso= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=woUpOs6wA/8927/mer0OeF9PgnFqw3r+wQmCiliMKKAnGOi61+OEe5Juqt7HsQcsIm K8KcaGWOHORRXxivlqzILPxBYfdjAfPJZ3rzD37ZbBqsZdgbM51iFQD9RAZRHl6JpZ7W dx8VBiz2LDTe+ZUGxfN6Nq/+nkZeYwhrt+VVI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.5.26 with SMTP id 26mr3600494wfe.75.1263401219620; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:46:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5715b9301001130631x23424333r17eeecbcfafd1a9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9301001121232t715e8e69n265381f070ded8ce@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301001121321x3878127cwb56e277b8878756f@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561001121405o460c9b12k6decf80e3a044387@mail.gmail.com> <201001122213.19312.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561001130429h731200edsd3b29fd0e5ffdc0d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301001130620n761fbe94j534f41fc6e52908d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301001130631x23424333r17eeecbcfafd1a9d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:46:59 -0500 Message-ID: <96f789a61001130846s10f70fcu5b8ae923c0ff3a95@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: shifting in tanru From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502b0a1e780fd047d0e8405 X-archive-position: 16835 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --00504502b0a1e780fd047d0e8405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > actually, after reading a bit more closely. xorxes, how do you get that only the first sumti goes into the selbri? I read: > Any sumti which precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places of > the selbri (i.e., the places of the tertau) in the ordinary way. In Example > 8.4, ``mi'' fills the x1 place of ``troci co klama'', which is the x1 place > of ``troci''. The other places of the selbri remain unfilled. The trailing > sumti ``le zarci'' and ``le zdani'' do not occupy selbri places, despite > appearances. > > to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH go into broda and ko'i goes into x2 of brode. Notice what the example quoted said, that example 8.4 ("mi troci co klama le zarci le zdani") is the same as example 8.3: 8.3) mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'o > troci > I am-a-(goer to the market from the house) > type-of trier. > I try to go to the market from the house. > In other words, the le zarci and le zdani are bound to the klama as if by be and bei, despite those cmavo not appearing. They are not considered to be filling places in the bridi, whose relationship is the tanru "troci co klama" (which I feel is counterintuitive, btw). Remember also that a tanru is simply the modified version of the tertau. In other words, a cmalu gerku is a gerku. Period. It just happens to be a small one So whether you put arguments before or after "cmalu gerku" they are the places of gerku, not of cmalu (unless they are lined to cmalu explicitly with internal be/bei/be'o). Similarly, this is exactly the same as a "gerku co cmalu". This is a type of gerku, not smalu. The only difference is that arguments AFTER are considered to be be/bei'd to the "cmalu". --gejyspa --00504502b0a1e780fd047d0e8405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>= actually, after reading a bit more closely. =C2=A0xorxes, how do you get t= hat only the first sumti goes into the selbri? =C2=A0I read:
=C2=A0Any sumti w= hich precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places of the selbri = (i.e., the places of the tertau) in the ordinary way. In=C2=A0Example 8.4, = ``mi'' fills the x1 place of ``troci co klama'', which is t= he x1 place of ``troci''. The other places of the selbri remain unf= illed. The trailing sumti ``le zarci'' and ``le zdani'' do = not occupy selbri places, despite appearances.
> to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to = mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH go into broda and ko'i goes into x= 2 of brode.

=C2=A0 Notice what the example quoted said, that example= 8.4=C2=A0("mi troci co klama le zarci le zdani")
is=C2=A0 the same as example 8.3:

8.3) =C2=A0mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'= ;o
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0troci
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I am-a-(goer to the market from the house)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0type-of trier.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I try to go to the market from= the house.

=C2=A0In other words, the le zarci and le = zdani are bound to the klama as if by be and bei, despite those cmavo=C2=A0= not appearing.=C2=A0 They are not considered to be filling places in the b= ridi, whose relationship is the tanru "troci co klama" (which I f= eel is counterintuitive, btw).=C2=A0 Remember also that a tanru is simply t= he modified version of the tertau.=C2=A0 In other words, a cmalu gerku is a= gerku.=C2=A0 Period.=C2=A0 It just happens to be a small one So whether yo= u put arguments before or after "cmalu gerku" they are the places= of gerku, not of cmalu (unless they are lined to cmalu explicitly with int= ernal be/bei/be'o).=C2=A0 Similarly, this is exactly the same as a &quo= t;gerku co cmalu".=C2=A0 This is a type of gerku, not smalu.=C2=A0 The= only difference is that arguments AFTER are considered to be be/bei'd = to the "cmalu".

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa

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