From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jan 21 14:22:49 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NY5QO-0005bR-Hd for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:22:49 -0800 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NY5QI-0005UN-Pl for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:22:45 -0800 Received: (qmail 36063 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jan 2010 22:22:36 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1264112556; bh=McMQmdTFIFtBHzDEMq8/FtrnW2xO/cWnWoqNnXJaU+o=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=noZHPaWVWn//8jQvcvtxvdQGbmQfleSoBsW8zs3O9Qs2NqeqhlX9Cv54nG93SYiNRRsJQ3306Z2yQdJFtVAGmP/z8JMFJV6e4itTEXBjjV5cXd0Ai0xOP3mqJI5PURRvayTy2ahM4XtpOzOdv0VQJzOelQwanA6S3TUKBr4jPd4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VFYoFWCM+CIxzPgLiokiGrS6yCqzT0uL+Fqm+RfFmtak4jdnqZwDvTCuACcajNNmroRASMjxWNvQd2P3lXsxXocTPyuOkGBKwMXKkuq+NNLiKv+PLFYAohQvjZbej0bwt2AzngmzAC04oI5YTIPVKPWPSxn/sM+R1hV7aVzW6fw=; Message-ID: <235868.35671.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: n33uv.YVM1kd0yMTJKccAnDMSVwxu3dKKOg..qHc1t1OsPNDYvI5u9yv62Lv2igVvp7NU0QjFBqs6gjwHfJdWRBFYgGmNxCZ4R.ZuVCZe3Hqy2rZcIgbYhMogLwQ2MoCSwJum4t4lvpTVFdr3B04ObDvxZ8vTmD0WyTXAWdoB9eFvOu2gaW4DEcZFi5V_aBWeUZiSElJegIzLV_lIaE_NljudBYw0fdTtjIhsdigo_oq60uljPECn8EeGDkKpEoB.jiQqX0jMb1Gp_nG8h0EOjr0UTOIoDtYduFh_TeIAhnngyNN_w4FfOz2kHufdyljPUtScnpeV3z06yBWxM1zxDfDqKhV9nqmTifNxYv0_ZJOVwvxrzLR99mVVg-- Received: from [71.81.141.59] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:22:36 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/272.7 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <5715b9301001211330y36354477q3ae3e3049512152a@mail.gmail.com> <487924055-1264110543-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1983607903-@bda480.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:22:36 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: question about emphasis or something like it To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <487924055-1264110543-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1983607903-@bda480.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2017200954-1264112556=:35671" X-archive-position: 16853 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-2017200954-1264112556=:35671 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Assuming that his surprise is a piece of information being conveyed, rather than that he is simply expressing his surprise, the 'ue' form is inappropriate, since it is merely an expression, not a claim. The English is, alas, ambiguous in just this way. ________________________________ From: Sam Chapin To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 3:49:35 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: question about emphasis or something like it I (a beginner) would express this with e.g. {do cusku lu ta li'u .ue} versus {do cusku .ue lu ta li'u}, but (assuming it works at all) that doesn't generalize to surprise on the part of a person other than the speaker. ________________________________ From: Luke Bergen Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:30:03 -0500 To: Subject: [lojban] question about emphasis or something like it How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')? My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their emphasis. I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget it (again). mi'e pafcribe --0-2017200954-1264112556=:35671 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Assuming that his surprise is a piece of information being conveyed, rather than that he is simply expressing his surprise, the 'ue' form is inappropriate, since it is merely an expression, not a claim.  The English is, alas, ambiguous in just this way.

From: Sam Chapin <not.here.now@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 3:49:35 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: question about emphasis or something like it

I (a beginner) would express this with e.g. {do cusku lu ta li'u .ue} versus {do cusku .ue lu ta li'u}, but (assuming it works at all) that doesn't generalize to surprise on the part of a person other than the speaker.
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:30:03 -0500
To: <lojban-list@lojban.org>
Subject: [lojban] question about emphasis or something like it

How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?

My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu se klama lo nanmu}).  And as I understand it the two sentences in English mean entirely different things.  They are not only different in their emphasis.

I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through.  It could probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget it (again).

mi'e pafcribe

--0-2017200954-1264112556=:35671-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.