From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Feb 07 20:30:44 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NeLGm-0000Yh-Mq for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:30:44 -0800 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NeLGb-0000S4-Kx for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:30:40 -0800 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=0dbv4n-o1bQA:10 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=xxkbbjKHvKBYzuo6va4A:9 a=Oo_TFZar0Kcuck1cI6TQCQvXD88A:4 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:37991] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id F7/28-28731-2639F6B4; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 04:30:27 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6716044 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:29:47 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <201001222242.21483.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201001281314.13744.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17561001281115w4c831da7lda733ba44757a92b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17561001281115w4c831da7lda733ba44757a92b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201002072329.52057.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-archive-position: 16919 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Thursday 28 January 2010 14:15:25 Jorge Llambías wrote: > Some examples from jbovlaste: > > ab,nie,na > sar,gue,ia > per,vu,'ui > krio,fla Also "niengatu", which is related to abniena ("nien" means "language" in both languages; I've thought of calling the language family "bangrniena"). Is there any indication in the Book that the initial "i" or "u" in a diphthong is considered part of the onset. > I don't find any example with CCCi/CCCu but I only made a superficial > check. camxes should accept the first two, but not the last two. How about "skriabino"? Or "striato"? Not that they've actually been defined, but they're plausible. Another example of Ci onset is "spatrxapio". Valfendi considers all of those valid. > That's odd indeed. It should disallow all of them. It appears as if it > was allowing tar,km,a,ko and bon,gn,an,ba but I don't see why. A > consonantal syllable should not be able to be followed by a syllable > without an onset. > > Maybe the implementation of camxes you are using is not based on the > current morphology as it appears in > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm > (or maybe I'm missing something there.) I downloaded it from a link someone gave me on IRC. How do I find out what version it is? Here's another question to consider: Should a coda be allowed after a consonantal nucleus? My example is "bangrgbe" (some African languages, named for their word for "language"). Both vlatai and valfendi accept it; camxes doesn't. Valfendi, when asked to syllabify it, says "BA,ngrgbe", but I'd say "BAN,grg,be". (In Gbe, the "gb" is one sound.) > If weird codas are allowed for the last syllable, shouldn't they be > allowed for any syllable, rather than just the last one? Chapter 4 contains the name "tcarlz", which ends in three consonants, and "ralj" as an example of a cmevla formed from the long rafsi of a gismu. If any long or CVC rafsi is allowed to be used as a cmevla (except ones that begin with "la" - so how do we name lakes?), then "rafs" and "datk" should be valid cmene. Some real-world names that end in clusters that can occur medially are "Minsk" and "Yakutsk". What about cmevla beginning with clusters that aren't allowed initially in a brivla, such as "mkyveix"? > camxes does not allow the combination of ts/tc/dz/dj with other > consonants in an onset. The only consonant-cluster onsets that it > accepts (besides those four) must fall within the pattern: > > (s,c,z,j) (p,t,k,f,x,b,d,g,v,m,n) (r,l) > > so the maximum length for an onset is three consonants. Where did you get this set of clusters from? Pierre -- Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.