From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 09 14:00:56 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Np7Ty-0006tD-PJ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:00:55 -0800 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Np7Th-0006ot-7F for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:00:49 -0800 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=y9PgM0RH17AA:10 a=ORa4HqFjfvEA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=6I8iWPodvRE6TEUx_zMA:9 a=_fMOtG2K_ArVE5tWXifpnSyxsO4A:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100 Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:48774] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 7F/1B-21054-BF4C69B4; Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:00:28 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2CB65EB7 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:00:26 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: stage-4 fu'ivla construction exception? Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:00:21 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <96f789a61003090826i27a6531eob88df0e3bfce7e14@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003090917y2816542eh14ea3b879ea2259@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17561003090917y2816542eh14ea3b879ea2259@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201003091700.24760.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-archive-position: 17151 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Tuesday 09 March 2010 12:17:21 Jorge Llambías wrote: > Yes, Pierre has pointed out this oversight in CLL before. I will add > it to the errata page. The example I came up with is "lerldjamo" (one of the Korean letters that are assembled into syllables), though one can avoid the problem for this word by saying "lerfrdjamo". "jikru" has no short rafsi. > Independently of this situation, Stage-3 fu'ivla are not always > unambiguously analyzable into classifier rafsi plus the rest. If you > follow the CLL rules, any CVCrV or CVnrV gismu used as classifier is > subject to this type of ambiguity. The "unwanted" reading, however, is > very unlikely to occur, because the borrowed word would have to start > with an unlikely consonant cluster. (like "ldjine" in your case). > > The way I have proposed to solve this is to add a rule that says that > the lojbanized part of the fu'ivla, before adding the classifier, has > to consist of valid lojban syllables (i.e., it has to start with a > valid initial), so "jikrldjine" can only be analyzed as jikr-l-djine. The way I think it should be resolved, and the way I think jbofi'e does it, is that if a stage-3 fu'ivla can be analyzed into either 3-letter rafsi + foreign part or 4-letter rafsi + foreign part, use the 4-letter rafsi. If the rule specified the 3-letter rafsi, then there are some combinations of gismu and foreign part for which it would be impossible to form a fu'ivla. (badnrnsete, badrntriste, badrnabri) There are some foreign parts which begin with invalid initial clusters for which it would be nice to be able to form fu'ivla, such as "gbe" ("bangrgbe"), a subfamily of African languages. Pierre -- La sal en el mar es más que en la sangre. Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.