From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Mar 12 07:53:55 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nq7BS-0007Qb-D8 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:53:54 -0800 Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com ([74.125.82.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nq7BL-0007KI-5l for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:53:52 -0800 Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17so995653wwi.40 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:53:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=WW+uQTrulPmt8Znhd12IqB+ZAaS3j8om96AtSkNUSsM=; b=yAPJfmyv8JkxuKw8cyx7cBOehSolSUBMVIG26R6sE+6LMaGang5Uy/l7gw9kCVNtB1 MUFj0UWK0vFK0xzP4o+tdYPIPeYsEacbqO5wC+xzNaKMQc/oKjwXiykh+6WZdsGawzE7 iZXMWG4s0fH4mKKJab5uqV//1GLV5aOFgyO/c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=UJF8e2+HbqTQtScMyp32kdDGS/a/9KV/pXp/RP/dZkYg3Nf+hMW22MpDN+XosboKv8 eA7HKqV8NI5OyS/Vc91uV3RsjyCZD5ktENw/ykghIeFNQhsOQoQLK4zAm5d0dtPoEzmi euSuYdpTvV4fSZDWjqm1xdNi3uXaKD1XUQh3Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.87.80 with SMTP id x58mr882954wee.92.1268409220393; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:53:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17561003120611x3f71d5baydd1a8019b336eddb@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003120602s47cb9b94p20cf5cbd9776990c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003120611x3f71d5baydd1a8019b336eddb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:53:40 -0700 Message-ID: <702226df1003120753m45775e2avc18bf50b6bcff585@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d6246902eb3004819c89ae X-archive-position: 17178 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016e6d6246902eb3004819c89ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The keyword of bacru is "utter", because "orgle-borgle", "squeak", and othe= r such onomatopeia are all utterances. A creaky door is a valid {lo bacru}, but it is not a valid {lo cusku}. I think the salient difference is that {l= o se cusku} is something imparting meaning, whereas {lo se bacru} is merely some sort of noise. I do agree with Robin that "express" is a better keyword than "say", not because "say" doesn't work, but because it is misleading. Someone learning that {cusku} means "x1 says x2 ...." will very probably assume that this means *only* verbal expression of a concept, which is not true of {cusku}. However, {bacru} is definitely not "say". If we want to fiddle with semantics, the appropriate lojbo valsi (IMO) for "say" would be {ba'usku} (bacru cusku): "x1 says (verbally expresses) x2 to x3 via medium x4" 2010/3/12 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > > > ISTM that "communicate" might be the best of all, because "say" > > often does connote bacru, as Robin says...errr..communicates. > > But "communicate" doesn't normally have words as the object. You say > words, you communicate ideas. > > "Say" is completely normal for written communication ("what does it > say here?", "what did he say in his letter?"), and while I don't have > much experience with sign language, if I see two people signing I > would not hesitate to say "I don't understand what they are saying". > It seems to me that "say" does not require bacru at all. > > The salient point about "cusku" is that the x2 is text/words/sign, and > that is exactly what the object of "say" is. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --0016e6d6246902eb3004819c89ae Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The keyword of bacru is "utter", because "orgle-borgle&= quot;, "squeak", and other such onomatopeia are all utterances. A= creaky door is a=A0valid {lo bacru}, but it is not a valid {lo cusku}.=A0I= think the salient difference is that {lo se cusku} is something imparting = meaning, whereas {lo se bacru} is merely some sort of noise.
=A0
I do agree with Robin that "express" is a better keyword tha= n "say", not because "say" doesn't work, but becaus= e it is misleading. Someone learning that {cusku} means "x1 says x2 ..= .." will very probably assume that this means only verbal exp= ression of a concept, which is not true of {cusku}.
=A0
However, {bacru} is definitely not "say". If we want to fidd= le with semantics, the appropriate lojbo valsi (IMO) for "say" wo= uld be {ba'usku} (bacru cusku): "x1 says (verbally expresses) x2 t= o x3 via medium x4"

2010/3/12 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Michael Turniansky
&= lt;mturniansky@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> =A0ISTM that "communicate" might be the bes= t of all, because "say"
> often does connote bacru, as Robin says...errr..communicates.

<= /div>But "communicate" doesn't normally have words as the obj= ect. You say
words, you communicate ideas.

"Say" is com= pletely normal for written communication ("what does it
say here?", "what did he say in his letter?"), and while I d= on't have
much experience with sign language, if I see two people si= gning I
would not hesitate to say "I don't understand what they= are saying".
It seems to me that "say" does not require bacru at all.

T= he salient point about "cusku" is that the x2 is text/words/sign,= and
that is exactly what the object of "say" is.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
= with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a= 9;o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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