From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Mar 12 12:02:46 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqB4G-0002kp-P2 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:02:45 -0800 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqB4D-0002jm-Ua for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:02:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:02:41 -0800 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? Message-ID: <20100312200241.GP10385@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <20100312183050.GJ10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121116t634e3b47xe5e4105e225ba491@mail.gmail.com> <20100312192042.GN10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121145x53ade2a3sdf2c6d443cce8854@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-archive-position: 17195 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:57:27AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > The problem in smart.fm is not the main entry for cusku, which is > "x1 says x2 to for audience x3 via expressive medium x4"; I can > recognize that as distict from tavla (or, if I can't, it's my > problem). The problem is the place cards, like "lo cusku" for "a > sayer". "a sayer" and "a talker" mean *exactly the same thing* to > me, neither of which is cusku (again, language mouth noises) > there's nothing to distinguish them except to purely memorize that > "a sayer" is cusku and "a talker" is tavla, but the whole point is > to memorize *the meaning* and not just the keyword > correspondences. > > Without explicitely memorizing the correspondences, I'm going to > always say that "a sayer" and "a talker" are both "lo tavla", > because they both mean mouth noises. > > Having to engage in explicit keyword memorization annoys the hell > out of me, and even if it's not quite correct, "an expresser" > matches cusku to me better than "a sayer", because "an expresser" > doesn't mean mouth noises. To expand on that: even if "I express "Oh no!"" is wrong (and it looks like bad style to me, but not wrong), I still assert that "lo cusku" translated as "an expresser" is just fine, but "lo cusku" translated as "a sayer" is not, because the latter implies mouth noises. I assert, in fact, that translatiing "lo cusku" in isolation as "a sayer" is simply wrong; that's how strongly "say" implies mouth noises to me. Maybe my use of "say" is wrong, but the point of flashcards is to work *with* how I understand the language I already know, not against it. Since at least one native English speaker has agreed with me, I don't think I'm that weird anyways. -Robin -- They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.