From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Mar 14 07:05:46 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqoRs-0006w0-CH for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:05:45 -0700 Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com ([74.125.82.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqoRO-0006rY-Pk for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:05:28 -0700 Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17so1998349wwi.40 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:05:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=WdyNwn8JY9nVLJ9b33f/9fqVih9sYxDGSXIrKFK4IZc=; b=G3p1I/+cqCHWwl11bZxzEIsvSG+NKnsxyJouh/Wu7cJTM171SnqoYBVzpE0WozA4j0 b/wwgknc14UBtpmAMib0lROsIJcPAMEoBC/XWMSJ8AOJanrih1GBdb8xWJub7FDXZ1Ut iGy0Mamir/F4KvtExuAzUzAwLNbC382OEZ4Uc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=RaoaBDggfqhpGWzwaaKwp3eQXDzfArokZxr7W/U0vW3nOvrUW61VatyKlJi3gQbsXb 7k0wkLCI+Bs6QlJ9ggsDSA5gj08umC/mcyyl2Il5c7UCoYwsd1GkBNAj1sHDIeSzvgJk aVkEv8A8VaO86Nuwpk6p3FvHy2OLpQOotm3W0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.157.212 with SMTP id o62mr780914wek.41.1268575506060; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:05:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17561003131226n5303477h1907741037570f1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003121116t634e3b47xe5e4105e225ba491@mail.gmail.com> <20100312192042.GN10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121145x53ade2a3sdf2c6d443cce8854@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <702226df1003131143l278d2c46lbdfcf548e0d172ff@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003131226n5303477h1907741037570f1e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:05:05 -0600 Message-ID: <702226df1003140705o682e399ufcdea6c30c490066@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6563aba68d7a90481c340fc X-archive-position: 17225 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016e6563aba68d7a90481c340fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/13 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > > > > I do feel that I should put my two cents in at this point. > > > > In the Smart.fm lesson, the keywords at this point are: > > cusku - express (Changed from "say" by Robin. Approved by me for reason= s > of > > semantic confusion which I've already expressed.) > > How come you had "say" in the first place? "Express" is the bad > keyword that the gi'uste has. Whoever decided to use "say" instead had > the right understanding of "cusku". > > Actually, being the primary (and practically only) editor of the list, it was I that originally went with "say". My reason for the choice at the time was length, as "say" is much shorter than "express", and at the time I was editing that particular definition my primary concern was the length thereof, and I wanted to be certain that the definition was not too long fo= r Smart.fm's cards. The orignal being: x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience x3 via expressive medium x4 was thus shortened to: x1 says x2 for audience x3 via medium x4 It happens that "express" does not cause the definition to be too long, and coupled with the English-speakers tendency to asociate the word "say" with the meaning of {ba'usku}, I agreed with Robin that "express" would be a better word to use. Also, .xorxes., I feel I should point out the following: say: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/say *=96verb (used with object)* 1. to utter or pronounce; speak: *What did you say? I said =93Hello!=94 * *=96verb (used without object)* 10. to speak; declare; express an opinion. talk: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talk *=96verb (used without object)* 1. to communicate or exchange ideas, information, etc., by speaking: *to talk about poetry. * *=96verb (used with object)* 11. to express in words; utter: *to talk sense. * *=96noun* 16. the act of talking; speech; conversation, esp. of a familiar or informal kind. The primary definitions of speak and talk are explicitly vocal, which is wh= y "say" is associated with vocal communication. Although it is true that the word can and often is used in relation to non-verbal communication, it is through context that listeners know that "say" is not being used in it's default manner. > tavla - talk (Unchanged, for the Baroque* reason.) > casnu - discuss (Unchanged*.) > bacru - utter (Unchanged*.) I think nobody has any problem with those. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --0016e6563aba68d7a90481c340fc Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2010/3/13 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I do feel that I should put my two cents in at this point.
> > In the Smart.fm lesson, the keywords at this point are:
> cusku = - express (Changed from "say" by Robin. Approved by me for reason= s of
> semantic confusion which I've already expressed.)

How come you had "say" in the first place? "Express&qu= ot; is the bad
keyword that the gi'uste has. Whoever decided to use = "say" instead had
the right understanding of "cusku"= .

=A0
Actually, being the primary (and practically only) editor of the list,= it was I that=A0originally went with "say". My reason for the ch= oice at the time was length, as "say" is much shorter than "= express", and at the time I was editing that particular definition my = primary concern was the length thereof, and I wanted to be certain that the= definition was not too long for Smart.fm's cards.
=A0
The orignal being:
x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for au= dience x3 via expressive medium x4
=A0
was thus shortened to:
x1 says x2 for audience x3 via medium x4
=A0
It happens that "express" does not cause the definition to b= e too long, and coupled with the English-speakers tendency to asociate the = word "say" with the meaning of {ba'usku}, I agreed with Robin= that "express" would be a better word to use.
=A0
Also, .xorxes., I feel I should point out the following:
=A0
=96verb (used with object)
1. to utter or prono= unce; speak: What di= d you say? I said =93Hello!=94
=96verb (used withou= t object)
10. to speak; declar= e; express an opinion.
=A0
=96verb (used without object)
1. to communicate or= exchange ideas, information, etc., by speaking: to talk about poetry.
=96verb (used with object)
11. to express in wo= rds; utter: to talk = sense.
=96noun
16. the act of talki= ng; speech; conversation, esp. of a familiar or informal kind.
=A0
The primary definitions of speak and talk are expli= citly vocal, which is why "say" is associated with vocal communic= ation. Although it is true that the word can and often is used in relation = to non-verbal communication, it is through context that listeners know that= "say" is not being used in it's default manner.
=A0
> tavla - talk (Unchanged, for the Baroque* reason.)
> casnu = - discuss (Unchanged*.)
> bacru - utter (Unchanged*.)

I think nobody has any problem w= ith those.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
= with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a= 9;o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--0016e6563aba68d7a90481c340fc-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.