From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Mar 14 07:57:53 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqpGJ-0004Ew-LR for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:57:52 -0700 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqpFk-0004Bm-9h for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:57:38 -0700 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so2605147bwz.26 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:57:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EJe3AmDS3+XzDpZ94ymOdMKE/S7i0YTOD0IgAxK9t0w=; b=V65leLt5j3DvkfmurBbW3rLPqVOaEpv9+ZNvE+AwcDQlmfQoT+2OF+fGFInzfUWjuK XVaGy9xpYYgvrn15cWnWCMTFyJ3rVkNp//xDwjlTfcz8uOnoEXlvca8w0YIhDTajD0A8 AXOfAdXuisNouPRpIP8KE0FRoGZfVPriIdaoA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=igUHolHMWClnoLKmVbjO53MMwmFV+aNEzVysTJ6YCdgBB2nLRycUAxyFqqZs2z+d0w YkgC5YuXYGVoaZTp8QWc/1TOMLPZQCKuwF/aI5q5Qu12H5ddyBd26guk5iBzi0JtZGO3 Y5Xr75+i07gdVDtHq/TFc21VDLjECBWFP1vDI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.131 with SMTP id l3mr5146685bkd.36.1268578629087; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:57:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <702226df1003140705o682e399ufcdea6c30c490066@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <20100312192042.GN10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121145x53ade2a3sdf2c6d443cce8854@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <702226df1003131143l278d2c46lbdfcf548e0d172ff@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003131226n5303477h1907741037570f1e@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003140705o682e399ufcdea6c30c490066@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:57:09 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561003140757x45c83214ra3d26c5993ad2169@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 17230 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > Actually, being the primary (and practically only) editor of the list, it > was I that originally went with "say". My reason for the choice at the time > was length, as "say" is much shorter than "express", and at the time I was > editing that particular definition my primary concern was the length > thereof, and I wanted to be certain that the definition was not too long for > Smart.fm's cards. Whatever the reason, it was a good choice. > The orignal being: > x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience x3 via > expressive medium x4 > > was thus shortened to: > x1 says x2 for audience x3 via medium x4 Good. Even better than the original, with the misleading "expresses". > It happens that "express" does not cause the definition to be too long, and > coupled with the English-speakers tendency to asociate the word "say" with > the meaning of {ba'usku}, I agreed with Robin that "express" would be a > better word to use. But it isn't a better word to use. I think you still don't understand why I'm saying that "express" is a bad choice. If you have: x1 expresses x2 to x3 via medium x4 and you don't already know what "cusku" actually means, you will end up saying things like: la djan cusku lo nu ri prami kei la meris lo nu dunda lo rozgu John expresses his love to Mary by giving her a rose. Do you see why that is wrong? Do you see that "his love" is the kind of argument that "express" wants, and not the kind of argument that "cusku" or "say" want? > The primary definitions of speak and talk are explicitly vocal, which is why > "say" is associated with vocal communication. Yes, and so is "talk". "cusku" and "tavla" are also primarily but not exclusively associated with vocal communication. Why is that a problem? > Although it is true that the > word can and often is used in relation to non-verbal communication, it is > through context that listeners know that "say" is not being used in it's > default manner. Just like "cusku" then. BTW, what replacement do you plan to use instead of "talk" for "tavla", to avoid the association with vocal communication? mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.