From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Mar 14 12:19:31 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqtLW-000277-4O for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:19:31 -0700 Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com ([74.125.82.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NqtLH-00025g-68 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:19:23 -0700 Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so1411983wyf.40 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=LZKMnAv12OYRHPtco06EYBSvfj1RbgFlkLy0pLR6w2s=; b=jQxZFHGZJ6vj7vAYK78yaHaqqQ5pGrpagDk0LmcnH9+Fd/0DNP4DQ0OTsBzlaCkS8G /3vxpJBvxIKI+WPRsePkqjiYBSWggu4meed/2I+IIjO91GzWNlEyNVL/2Cinvpigdyde GGTSqw6O27iywpCu4eDJlBhUGUzYDvo8/c/eA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=n541j/J4oBbhSYjiqgBHKHpG0av/meTbo0k0l/sTpIW/dOXEcehKu07xAQVgMeIZrq iEwh2lLmm2/j9wtHvM3QRupxOie9dKDtwfzC9RcnzEdw9Q+AvOySwEvmTdrEKiYQEpXs g4jy9XI4VuJS5wtqmra2v/AYAGD+GB5/tWhjU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.156.193 with SMTP id m43mr540971wek.8.1268594348734; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17561003140757x45c83214ra3d26c5993ad2169@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003121145x53ade2a3sdf2c6d443cce8854@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <702226df1003131143l278d2c46lbdfcf548e0d172ff@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003131226n5303477h1907741037570f1e@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003140705o682e399ufcdea6c30c490066@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003140757x45c83214ra3d26c5993ad2169@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:19:08 -0600 Message-ID: <702226df1003141219k55701cf3nb0acb31afdcba21b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016367f9eee853ca70481c7a30c X-archive-position: 17234 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016367f9eee853ca70481c7a30c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/3/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > > > > Actually, being the primary (and practically only) editor of the list, = it > > was I that originally went with "say". My reason for the choice at the > time > > was length, as "say" is much shorter than "express", and at the time I > was > > editing that particular definition my primary concern was the length > > thereof, and I wanted to be certain that the definition was not too lon= g > for > > Smart.fm's cards. > > Whatever the reason, it was a good choice. > > > The orignal being: > > x1 (agent) expresses/says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience x3 > via > > expressive medium x4 > > > > was thus shortened to: > > x1 says x2 for audience x3 via medium x4 > > Good. Even better than the original, with the misleading "expresses". > > > It happens that "express" does not cause the definition to be too long, > and > > coupled with the English-speakers tendency to asociate the word "say" > with > > the meaning of {ba'usku}, I agreed with Robin that "express" would be a > > better word to use. > > But it isn't a better word to use. I think you still don't understand > why I'm saying that "express" is a bad choice. If you have: > > x1 expresses x2 to x3 via medium x4 > > and you don't already know what "cusku" actually means, you will end > up saying things like: > > la djan cusku lo nu ri prami kei la meris lo nu dunda lo rozgu > John expresses his love to Mary by giving her a rose. > > Do you see why that is wrong? No. > Do you see that "his love" is the kind > of argument that "express" wants, and not the kind of argument that > "cusku" or "say" want? > > > The primary definitions of speak and talk are explicitly vocal, which i= s > why > > "say" is associated with vocal communication. > > Yes, and so is "talk". > > "cusku" and "tavla" are also primarily but not exclusively associated > with vocal communication. Why is that a problem? > > > Although it is true that the > > word can and often is used in relation to non-verbal communication, it = is > > through context that listeners know that "say" is not being used in it'= s > > default manner. > > Just like "cusku" then. > > BTW, what replacement do you plan to use instead of "talk" for > "tavla", to avoid the association with vocal communication? > I don't. > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or= g > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --0016367f9eee853ca70481c7a30c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/3/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Actually, being the primary (and practically only) editor of the lis= t, it
> was I that=A0originally went with "say". My reason for the c= hoice at the time
> was length, as "say" is much shorter th= an "express", and at the time I was
> editing that particul= ar definition my primary concern was the length
> thereof, and I wanted to be certain that the definition was not too lo= ng for
> Smart.fm's cards.

Whatever the reason, it w= as a good choice.

> The orignal being:
> x1 (agent) expresses/= says x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience x3 via
> expr= essive medium x4
>
> was thus shortened to:
> x1 says x2 = for audience x3 via medium x4

Good. Even better than the original, with the misleading "ex= presses".

> It happens that "express" does not cau= se the definition to be too long, and
> coupled with the English-spea= kers tendency to asociate the word "say" with
> the meaning= of {ba'usku}, I agreed with Robin that "express" would be a<= br> > better word to use.

But it isn't a better word to use= . I think you still don't understand
why I'm saying that "e= xpress" is a bad choice. If you have:

=A0x1 expresses x2 to x3 = via medium x4

and you don't already know what "cusku" actually means, y= ou will end
up saying things like:

=A0la djan cusku lo nu ri pram= i kei la meris lo nu dunda lo rozgu
=A0John expresses his love to Mary b= y giving her a rose.

Do you see why that is wrong?
=A0
No.
=A0
Do you see that "his love&q= uot; is the kind
of argument that "express" wants, and not the= kind of argument that
"cusku" or "say" want?

> The primary definitions of speak and talk are ex= plicitly vocal, which is why
> "say" is associated with voc= al communication.

Yes, and so is "talk".

&quo= t;cusku" and "tavla" are also primarily but not exclusively = associated
with vocal communication. Why is that a problem?

> Although it is true that the
> word can an= d often is used in relation to non-verbal communication, it is
> thro= ugh context that listeners know that "say" is not being used in i= t's
> default manner.

Just like "cusku" then.

= BTW, what replacement do you plan to use instead of "talk" for"tavla", to avoid the association with vocal communication?
I don't.
=A0
mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from t= his list, send mail to lo= jban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to = http://www.lojban= .org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a= 9;o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--0016367f9eee853ca70481c7a30c-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.