From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Mar 14 13:51:50 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqums-0000jh-3G for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:51:50 -0700 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nqumi-0000ii-Fm for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:51:44 -0700 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so2790445bwz.26 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vksb1RGkgX6R7r3AuxZ9Bp44Z35IrbSz/YYDXiqmTxM=; b=WGQ2B2sQyjfso4lHSgohyiLGZ+rLVT6/ePOlJu65RivsfetfdSGRoL1oT/bP4HmQvo m0Et3l4W+R/0U8rSbluZDrrfftyw5nWc31JVB+11kvrL/0tPJ5i+oXsW59wkVBtlWKCW 5VH4FBRyyIK8O8n5+VW0KoHAFQZWMs9eL6ccM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WQ6xyqFx2C9+vsKmXV6Z9b4Et4ncfJWA+WzqTx38bqhNrlxTu6EIHOz9WmngQMHyR1 RSRM1/xjOf5YU3pMQhXxUREjRhpJDZwqsYFC+qheSmaBUR34zhXaYAX1bKdDiQk88IHE PHhrU3USBTvJaZltB7muZpudm/2pTPrFC09s0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.36.199 with SMTP id u7mr823884bkd.212.1268599891380; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <702226df1003141219k55701cf3nb0acb31afdcba21b@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17561003120510w5268cea2sdbf61cc89932839d@mail.gmail.com> <20100312195727.GO10385@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003121311m422cf3bbjf82ee369a9b6c33b@mail.gmail.com> <1268429293.26304.3.camel@thomas> <121832.27670.qm@web50401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <702226df1003131143l278d2c46lbdfcf548e0d172ff@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003131226n5303477h1907741037570f1e@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003140705o682e399ufcdea6c30c490066@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003140757x45c83214ra3d26c5993ad2169@mail.gmail.com> <702226df1003141219k55701cf3nb0acb31afdcba21b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:51:31 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561003141351t4ef5dc11r69e8ec60b5d55651@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 17235 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > 2010/3/14 Jorge Llambías >> If you have: >> >>  x1 expresses x2 to x3 via medium x4 >> >> and you don't already know what "cusku" actually means, you will end >> up saying things like: >> >>  la djan cusku lo nu ri prami kei la meris lo nu dunda lo rozgu >>  John expresses his love to Mary by giving her a rose. >> >> Do you see why that is wrong? > > No. OK. To see what the problem with it is, you need to understand that lo se cusku cu sinxa gi'a valsi gi'a se smuni, whereas things that you express are se sinxa gi'a se valsi gi'a smuni. You say or cusku the signifier, you express the signified. The second argument of "cusku" is a sign, something with meaning. The second argument of "express", on the other hand, is a meaning. You don't express signs, you use signs in order to express their meanings. "cusku" describes the use of the sign, not the expression of the meaning. It relates the sign user x1 with the sign x2. "cusku" doesn't have a place for the meaning of the sign, the way that "express" does. If you explain "cusku" as "x1 expresses x2", you are implying that x2 is a meaning, but in fact the x2 of "cusku" is not a meaning, it is a meaning carrier, a sign, a text, words. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.