From hombre!think.com!gls Thu Dec 14 05:37:43 1989 Return-Path: Received: by marob.masa.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.7) id ; Thu, 14 Dec 89 05:37 EST Received: by hombre.MASA.COM (smail2.5) id AA11826; 14 Dec 89 04:53:24 EST (Thu) Received: from bpa.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.3/3.04) with UUCP id AA27129; Thu, 14 Dec 89 04:32:51 EST Received: by bpa.bell-atl.com (Smail3.1.17.5) id ; Thu, 14 Dec 89 03:28 EST Received: by vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (5.51/smail2.5/03-15-88) id AA19507; Thu, 14 Dec 89 03:04:26 EST Received: by snark.uu.net (smail2.3) id AA02980; 14 Dec 89 02:32:26 EST (Thu) Received: from Gateway.Think.COM by uunet.uu.net (5.61/1.14) with SMTP id AA07377; Wed, 13 Dec 89 14:18:51 -0500 Received: from Fafnir.Think.COM by Think.COM; Wed, 13 Dec 89 11:44:39 -0500 Return-Path: Received: from verdi.think.com by fafnir.think.com; Wed, 13 Dec 89 11:27:40 EST Received: from ungar.think.com by verdi.think.com; Wed, 13 Dec 89 11:25:30 EST From: think.com!gls (Guy Steele) Received: by ungar.think.com; Wed, 13 Dec 89 11:25:28 EST Date: Wed, 13 Dec 89 11:25:28 EST Message-Id: <8912131625.AA15267@ungar.think.com> To: snark.uu.net!eric Cc: uunet!snark!lojban-list, ai.ai.mit.edu!KFL In-Reply-To: eric@snark.uu.net's message of 12 Dec 89 21:27:32 EST (Tue) <8912122127.AA29392@snark.uu.net> Subject: English translation of my Saturday message Status: RO Date: 12 Dec 89 21:27:32 EST (Tue) From: eric@snark.uu.net >> samjulne computer network for purpose ... using carrier ... > >No, "julne" means a net like for catching fish or bugs. Besides, >"samjulne" would have to have the same structure as "julne". The whole point of tanru construction is that lujvo may have meanings that are *metaphorically* rather than literally related to the roots. Note that the x2 place of the gismu julne is "for purpose" not "for catching". Allow me to suggest, however, that the metaphor implicit in the English (as opposed to Lojban) use of the word "network" is not entirely apropos. The kind of net used to catch fish and the kind of net used to connect computers are both more or less physical embodiments of a mathematical graph: a set of points some pairs of which are connected by lines or arcs. However, the important properties of the graphs are quite different in the two cases. For catching a fish, geometrical structure and relative homogeneity are important; the idea is that the holes (cycles) of the network are small enough that for some purposes the graph behaves as if it were a two-dimensional structure that can contain a physical object, and yet liquids or much smaller objects can leak through. In the case of a computer network geometrical properties are of almost no interest at all; what matters is connectivity (a topological but not geometrical property) and the bandwidth of the arcs rather than the size of the holes. In general, one must be careful to re-examine the metaphors underlying English compound words before using them to form Lojban words. So I would suggest that one build the Lojban word for "computer network" on a metaphor more akin to "graphwork" than "network". I might expect it to have a place structure more akin to x1 is a computer-connectivity-means connecting set of computers x2 by means of carrier (or technology) x3 for purpose x4 the point being that to define a graph one ought first to mention the set of nodes and the set of arcs. I would expect to synthesize this from words for "computer" and "connectivity-means", which latter might be primitive or might be built from the ideas of "mathematical graph" and "physical embodiment or means". (Alternatively, the term for a mathematical graph might be built from "connectivity means" and "abstract or ideal"--what has been previous practice here?) ARPANET samfubar ARPA-contractor-computers leased-phone-lines all-around-hacking One might expect the words "fishnet" and "sieve" to be more closely related in Lojban than they are in English. --Guy Steele P.S. If you look in the Oxford English Dictionary you will find that "email" is actually an English word, now obsolete, hundreds of years old. The participial form "emailed" describes an object that has been given the form or impression of "mail" (as in chain mail armor). The OED describes this as "having the form or appearance of a net work". Very curious that "email" and "network" should be linked six hundred years ago, and then again now under a very different metaphor.