To: uunet!snark!lojban-list
Subject: response to many messages
Date: 16 Dec 89 18:16:21 EST (Sat)
From: snark.uu.net!lojbab
Message-Id: <8912161816.AA14857@snark.uu.net>
Status: RO

Responses to various mail items from lojbab (and athelstan where so noted).
I'm putting it all in one so I can upload quick and cheap; I don't know
the unix editors and system commands anyway.

Consider all of my statements open for comment, so I don't have to ask on each.
My answers should not be considered the last word on any issue; I'm certainly
not perfect at Lojban matters, and besides - its your language as much
as mine.


1.    > Bob LeChevalier uses the AMRAD BBS.  I will copy messages back and
      > forth between here and there.

Not necessary.  I'll be keeping somewhat up on this address, though
I won't promise to respond this quickly.  I'll be working on getting local net
access now that we have both non-profit status and an active net.


2.    > This is a simple, elegant tanru (`computer type of language' => sam
      > + ban). But what should its place structure be? What sumti should it
      > take?

      The place structure of "samban" would have to be the same as that of
      "bangu" (language).

samban is not a lojban predicate, but a name.  It doesn't end in a vowel.
It could be taken to be a name of some generic international computer
language if lojban weren't already going to fill that role. :-)  You need
to choose rafsi more carefully to fit the morphology, resulting in sambau.

On a place structure:
Agreed, somewhat.  But skami (computer) has a 2nd place, too: the purpose.
In tanru, the place structure is always that of the final term.  When you
make a tanru into a lujvo, you may need to include places from non-final
terms that are relevant, but leaving out places that are in effect supplied
by the tanru relationship.
(e.g. bilma binxo = ill-become) has the place structure of binxo, even
though the thing become (x2) is implied by the tanru  to be 'ill'.)
This is because tanru relationships are not unambiguous, and you might
be implying a different interpretation that the obvious.  When you make
a lujvo, though, you are choosing one meaning, and this allows variation
when the word inventor defines the place structure.
Normally, you will combine all the places (in some as yet undefined order
or algorithmic procedure), eliminate redundant or obvious places, then
possibly - but only with reluctant, careful, thought, you will add any extra
places that are universally expected to be supplied by a user of the word.
Especially with technical jargon, you will have a tendency to want to add
such places too often.

Thus, for computer language sambau, we have:

x1 is a computer-language used by programmers (the 'people' place of
bangu) x2 for computing purpose (the purpose place of skami) x3.

I don't see any obvious additional places or redundancies,
so I'd let this stand.


3.    > samymri  electronic-mail ... to ... from ... by carrier ...

Read the place structure for mrilu - it is the verb.  The lujvo is valid,
provided that you decide the lujvo is most appropriate for describing
computer as the transfer medium/carrier (though you could leave the place
in to carry additional information such as 'net'.  For the tanru, though
this can't be assumed and a skami mrilu could be a robot who takes your
mail to the post office, a person who ships computers via mail, or a person
who uses a computer as an origin or destination for the mail, though not
necessarily as a carrier (e.g. a computer-generated bulk-mailer,
God forbid!).  Note that the 3rd place of mrilu is probably supposed
to be the address, not the person, sent to, though there are ways to
get around this in Lojban using relative clauses.

I would presume samymri's place structure to be:

x1 computer-posts/mails x2 (the mail) to x3 (the address, probably
with a po la cmen. to indicate the name of the addressee) from x4
(the address of origin, possibly also with a po la cmen., since the
poster may not be the message author, as in my including comments
from Athelstan in this message.) via carrier/net x5.  The computing-
purpose would be left out as obvious, in this case the computer's
purpose is to carry the mail.

Thus, computer-mail would be 'se samymri', as I understand the concept.


4.       > Let's see some discussion on this. And...what about a lujvo for
         > `electronic mailing list'?
      How about "samkarni" (computer type of journal).  The place structure
      of "liste" (list) isn't quite right.

Not sure of the intended meaning.  Possibilities for one meaning is:

tersamymri liste or samtermri liste - the list of addressees for mailing
messages to:

liste xemsamymri or liste samxemymri - a computer mail net that mails based
on a list of destinations;

As a lujvo, this is stesamxemymri, and you could leave
out the redundant interaction of places for addressee and listed set,
or modify them into a description of the people in the set.  If order
(of addresses on the list, say in order of joining or of priority of
sending to) is not important, you don't use 'list', but instead girzu
or selcmi.


5.   A `computer type of journal' seems to me to imply third-party editorship
     and refereeing, as is done in some tightly moderated newsgroups but not
     in most mailing lists (and certainly not in this one). Or am *I* being too
     literal now ? :-)

I don't think it implies 'refereeing', per se, since karni includes all
sorts of periodical a periodic publications, including newspapers.  There
is a 'by' place that I believe indicates a publisher, who in this instance
is probably the net, though it could be the editor/moderator.  Since the
newsgroup in this case is usually participatory, you would probably use
conversion to bring the x3 place recipients to the fore - THEY are the
'mailing list' and in some respects also the 'journal'.

But there is a problem:  the tanru 'skami karni' can also mean BYTE, Dr.
Dobb's and CACM, and some newsgroups have nothing to do with computers,
except as a medium for exchange.  And I think this meaning is more common,
thus deserving the lujvo 'samkarni'.  Also, I think most newsgroups are too
intermittent in most peoples reading or contributing to them to call them
journals.  If the definition for computer-mail flies, then samtermri nuzgri
seems about right.


6.    >> mi gerna ca srera ki'u mi cnino la lojban .i'o
      > i didn't get beyond "i am a grammar...".
      does "mi gerna" mean "my grammar" (my intended meaning) or "i am a
      grammar"?
      ...

Eric Tiedemann's analysis of this is correct, and quite thorough.  Good
job, Eric.  I see nothing to add at this point.  Coranth's comments
were also good, though he made a little mistake as noted below.

From Athelstan, though, for Keith Lynch:

In "mi gerna", grammatically, "mi" can fill the first argument place
for gerna, that is, the grammar.  In "lemi gerna", "le" needs a gismu,
tanru, or lujvo after it.  "mi" is only a cmavo, so the influence of
"le" continues until it finds "gerna" (it stops at "cu" or "ca" -
present tense - as it would at any tense marker), and "lemi gerna"
occupies the 1st argument place of "srera".  The "mi" in that construction
ends up a possessive-type relationship by definition in the grammar.
(Bob: Hence, 'lemi gerna cu srera', but note that srera should be 'se srera').
Nevertheless, ledo nuncustroci cu pluka mi
                                  Athelstan

Bob, again.  Yes, we know the place structures in the list are confusing;
the published list was made up for LogFlash, which has been limited to
40 character definitions.  Treat the definitions as having x1 implicit,
thus, sort of as a definition for le 'broda', the description form.
The textbook lessons have extended, and occasionally changed, place
structures; we have assembled these revised definitions in a new list.
If we ever get time to review the new list, we'll publish, and revise
LogFlash as well.  But you'll have to live with the present list till
spring.  (Exception: Coranth and Eric T., if you, or anyone else is
actively running a class, and it actually gets started, we will
probably give your class a copy for review purposes; changes will
not be 'official' until we publish the new list, though, so we don't
want to widely distribute it in draft until it has been once-reviewed
for obvious errors.)


7.   >No, "julne" means a net like for catching fish or bugs.  Besides,
     >"samjulne" would have to have the same structure as "julne".
     The whole point of tanru construction is that lujvo may have meanings
     that are *metaphorically* rather than literally related to the roots. Note
     that the x2 place of the gismu julne is "for purpose" not "for catching".

Yes, BUT, be careful on 'metaphorical' meanings that aren't derived anew
from the denotation.  We are actively avoiding importing English metaphors
to prevent English/American bias in the language.  Even so, plenty such
will creep in.  There is little that is net-like about a computer-net.
I agree pretty much with Guy Steele (more later when I get to
his message in 11. below.)


8:  To Eric Raymond.  I don't know if you are getting messages indicating
all of the bad addresses on the list I gave you.  Here are the ones I've
gotten.  If anyone else has valid addresses for these people, please give
them to Eric:

    Chris Hibbert       hibbert.pa
    Henry E. Fischer    cornella
    Carl Burke          mwvm!m16569@mwunix.mitre.org
    Glenn Chapman       ll-vls.arpal.glenn
    Steven Cobb         afsc-ssd.as.mil.cobbhs
    Thomas Edwards      jhvnix!ins_atge
    Guy Wicker          wicker!well
    Bill Rudow          wcr@mbunix.mitre.org
    Mike Pique          sdscnet!scr.sdscnet!mp


9.   I have no idea what "ca" means, so I assume that it's a typo fo "cu".
     Thus the way I'd write that sentence is:
             "le my gerna cu srera ki'u mi cu cnino la lojban"
     Translated as:
             "my grammer errs in (me being new to lojban)"
     This assumes that "ki'u" [a cmavo I barely recognize]
     is the 'begin-parenthetical-expression' marker.

     It would make more sense to use the cmavo for 'beause',
     [which "ki'u" might be, I'm not sure], resulting in this translation:
             "my grammer errs because I am new to lojban"

ca is a tense marker - Lesson 4/4A; I assume the 'my' was a typo - lemi.
ki'u is one of several 'because's in lojban, but is the correct one here.
srera is the verb sense 'to err'; the error is 'se srera' or 'selsre'.
The only other mistake is that ki'u, as a sumti tcita, takes a sumti, and
you've followed it with a full bridi.  You want to wrap the latter in
a lenu clause (or some other abstraction) giving:

"lemi gerna cu selsre ki'u lenu mi [cu] cnino la lojban"
"my grammer is-erred-in because-of the-state-that I am new to lojban"

sumti tcita are also in Lesson 4/4A.  Again, good try Coranth!


10.      >I need an on-line list of gismu and/or cmavo.

Darren Stalder said that he'd send you gismu list.  He has a few other
files from me that he'll forward on request.  You'll have to wait a
couple weeks for the cmavo list from JL11.  (We can't pay the phone bill
yet to upload big files.)


11.   >> samjulne  computer network for purpose ... using carrier ...
        > ... [suggesting an alternative approach]
        > ... I might expect it to have a place structure more akin to
        >x1 is a computer-connectivity-means connecting set of computers x2
        >     by means of carrier (or technology) x3 for purpose x4
        >    -Guy Steele

Guy's pllace structure implies a good tanru - lets look at each term:
'computer' - skami - has the purpose sumti
'is joined to' - jorne - has the things joined, and the connection point
the third term could either be:
'system' - ciste (with function and component places that would incorporate
and reduce others in a lujvo); I think I've always envisioned a network
as a type of system.
  or, per Guy's definition:
'method' - tadji - has a process and conditions that also may be reduced
with others.

Place structure using ciste:
x1 is a computer-joined_to-system (computer net) for function x2,
 with components x3

In Guy's place structure, x3 and x1 may be the same thing in this context,
or the carrier he is referring to in his x3 may be added as an x4 place
in my proposal, based on the x3 place of jorne.  We thus add:  joined via x4.
The lujvo places naturally fall out of looking at the set of places
available for the lujvo, so you would probably include it in at the
final point, to be left unspecified if not important.

thus we get samjo'eci'e/samjonci'e, or samjontadji/samjo'etadji, by this
tanru.  Note that the resulting place structure, and hence meaning, is
somewhat different from the tanru/lujvo given in my earlier responses
thus giving you a choice of words to emphasize the aspects you want
in lojban, rather then the single misleading english 'net'.  In may cases
like this, there will be more than one valid lojban equivalent for an
English word.

The question occurs to me whether distributed processing nets, and
parallel processing boxes - Guy this is your field, not mine - are
also included in the tanru and lujvo, in which case you'd want a
mrisamjonci'e for a mail-network.  But then, a parallel processor might
better come from rearranging the terms : jonci'eskami, and a distributed
processing network is indeed a network fully as much as this is.

12. Athelstan on Eric Raymond's tanru proposals, with Bob's notes
in brackets:

machine-method (minjytadji) is definitely automation.
   [But we have zmiku for automatic, so why not minjyzmiku]
velru'e (4th place of pruce - process, being the steps/stages) is algorithm
cmacyvelru'e is a math algorithm
samyminste (computer-command-list) is a program
   [minde is the commander - be more exact with 'samselminste' (computer-
    commands-list) - always check place structures]
I think the general terms 'software', 'hardware', 'firmware', and
'vaporware' present more of a challenge to lojbanists, since these are
generally understood but rarely defined terms
   [and an extension of an English tanru concept that we should be careful
   before retaining]


13.  Athelstan on Eric Raymond's Tengwar proposal:
    I have read some of the article, and feel the need to retrieve my
copy of 'Return of the King' to propoerly absorb the rest.
    My initial reaction is to ask what purpose this is for, but as I
read further on, it is clear that it matters little that few printer
drivers can produce these characters, no typesetters can produce them,
and only a handful of people can appreciate, much less read or write,
the tengwar characters;  this is fun, and such play is pleasant to the
work-worn.
    The less obvious benefit of the exercise is that it is achieving
of the phonemic end, a ruminating of ideas.  It may lead to better
ideas, ot to an individually better appreciation and understanding of
the ones commonly known.
    I will have more technical comments later.

P.S. For now, send mail to me care of lojbab.


14. Keith Lynch - I don't have room herein to comment on the several
attempts you've made to write lojban here and on the AMRAD Board.
Since you're local, it may be better to get together, or at least
talk on the phone.  I suggest, while you are learning, not delaying
the translations.  If you want to separate them, put them in a separate
message to encourage someone to try before looking at your answer,
but I don't think this is needed.  If people want to read lojban, they
will, and if they don't, they will skip the message.
    It is clear in your AMRAD message that you are asking several
miscellaneous questions.  I'm not always sure what they are, and so
can'tr answer them without explanation.  (For others reading - the
AMRAD BBS has a Lojban conference.  703-734-1387, PC Pursuitable.)

15. Eric Tiedemann and Coranth D' Gryphon: as the New York and Boston
class organizers, you may wish to exchange info, and you both owe me
an update.  Art Wieners in New Jersey, too, if your class efforts have
gone anywhere.  You all may want to report what you've been up to for
others on this net (in English, probably), and Art may want to describe
some of his software efforts:  these are far enough advanced, that they
have us looking for someone to provide us with voice recognition hardware.


16. Final News Note:
LK11 is being mailed to level 0 people on Monday 18 Dec.  Level 1 and
higher people will get JL10 and LK11 together, to be mailed on the 19th.
JL10 has 3200 words net of Lojban text, with translations in a separate
section (annotated word-for-word and colloquial translations).  We are
also including 9 pages of current cmavo definitions covering all cmavo
used in JL10, about 1/3 of the complete list.
I plan to upload the Lojban text, a parser output for some pieces therein,
and possibly the translations and cmavo list, to everyone on this net in a
couple of weeks, so you can look at them on-line.  (This is probably vital
for using the complicated parser output for Athelstan's Saki translation.)
Note: We now have our IRS non-profit status, and these newsletters are
us some $1200, draining our bank account.  If your balance is negative,
please bring it up-to-date.  If you want to include us in your Xmas gift
list, you get a little of it back at tax time - we'll send receipts to
all donors after the first of the year (if your balance is negative and
you donate, we have to bring your balance to 0 to account for market value
of goods received, before crediting excess as a donation.)