From hombre!think.com!gls Sat Jun 2 06:49:01 1990 Return-Path: Received: by marob.masa.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.7) id ; Sat, 2 Jun 90 06:49 EDT Received: by hombre.MASA.COM (smail2.5) id AA08241; 2 Jun 90 06:57:28 EDT (Sat) Received: from Mail.Think.COM by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.3/3.06) id AA20548; Fri, 1 Jun 90 15:41:17 EDT Return-Path: Received: from Verdi.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Fri, 1 Jun 90 15:37:19 -0400 Received: by verdi.think.com; Fri, 1 Jun 90 15:37:17 EDT Date: Fri, 1 Jun 90 15:37:17 EDT From: think.com!gls (Guy Steele) Message-Id: <9006011937.AA15586@verdi.think.com> To: marob.masa.com!cowan Cc: uunet.uu.net!lojban-list%snark In-Reply-To: John Cowan's message of Wed, 30 May 90 9:55:44 EDT Subject: PROPOSED CHANGE TO GISMU BASELINE -- PLEASE READ & RESPOND! Status: RO From: cowan@marob.masa.com (John Cowan) Date: Wed, 30 May 90 9:55:44 EDT ... The elements of the tanru are to be taken literally; the relationship between them is where the ambiguity/undefinedness creeps in. Thus a "blanu zdani" is a "blue-type-of nest": it could be a nest which is blue, or a nest for things which are blue, etc. However, the word "blue" cannot be taken in a figurative sense (= "depressed, e.g.), nor can the word "nest". They are literally meant. You are saying that compounds may be used metaphorically but single words cannot. (a) I don't see why that should be. (b) Regardless of what I say or what you say, I confidently predict that in a living language people will use single words metaphorically and will also use such metaphorical meanings when building compounds. Therefore, purely for the sake of some perverse examples, allow me to suggest that I might well use "blanu zdani", under appropriate circumstances, to mean: a "den of corruption" or "house of ill repute" (cf. English "blue laws") a police station a collection of IBM PC hackers (cf. "Big Blue" nickname for IBM) home of parents who are sad because their children have grown up and moved out (cf. "empty nest") a clothing store specializing in denim any place of sanctuary from the eugenics squad (because by the year 2040 there will be genetic police and once in the year 2042 a clergyman hid a refugee behind an altar that happened to be covered with a blue velvet altarcloth) ... and so on. I think it is clear that in each case I am speaking of a ((blue-in-some-sense)-type-of nest-in-some-sense)-in-some-sense. Forbidding the possibility to call any of these "blanu zdani" simply because "blanu" or "zdani" was not intended in its literal sense would greatly impoverish the expressive power of the language. Or have I missed the point? --Guy Steele P.S. Consider also the fact that different cultures (and professions) have yet other methaphorical associations for the color blue, if not also for the concept of "nest". By the way, forgive me for being ignorant of the precise literal meaning of "zdani"; for the purposes of the illustrations above I assumed it meant a bird's nest. I don't know whether it covers a nest of bowls or of Russian dolls, for example. Sorry.