Return-Path: Message-Id: From: cowan (John Cowan) Subject: Re: Observative example, grammar question To: lojban-list Date: Wed, 22 May 91 12:53:07 EDT In-Reply-To: <9105211537.AA21406@luna.math.ucla.edu>; from "math.ucla.edu!jimc" at May 21, 91 8:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL13] Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Wed May 22 12:53:39 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cowan la djim. kartr. cusku di'e: > At the L.A. group meeting we discussed "observatives", Initially we had > trouble to analyse the meaning of the bare kunbri "nanmu"; we concluded > that it meant "manliness is happening here", but the distinction between > that and "a man", while obviously real, is hard to explain. But we came > up with a better example: > > carvi It's raining > lo carvi Look, raindrops Bare "nanmu" does not mean "manliness is happening here", which would be a different observative: "ka nanmu". "nanmu" is analyzed as follows: nanmu zo'e nanmu something-unspecified is-a-man A man! Similarly, "carvi" means "something-unspecified is raining". Both of these observatives state claims. "lo carvi" and "lo nanmu" state no claim: they simply refer to something, without telling you anything about the referent. > Now a grammar question: Translate "The cat on the mat eats the rat" using > a modal phrase. > > le mlatu be vi le matci cu citka le ratcu > > Is "be" used correctly here to link "vi le matci" to the sumti rather than > the selbri? Yes, this is correct. > Assuming it is (and continuing a previous thread), how does > this differ from > > le bajra be ve lo'e dargu cu citka le cinki > The roadrunner (runner via roads) eats the insect (ve = place tag 4) This is ungrammatical: you are using a conversion where you should be using a place marker. You need "le bajra be fo lo'e dargu". > (Please don't flame the literal translation; I needed an exact parallel.) > The official linker is "vo be" (digit 4), but would my usage actually be > rejected by the grammar and would it be incomprehensible to subsequent > steps? That's Old Loglan; we no longer have numeric-marked linkers. In Lojban, "BE term [BEI term] ... /BEhO/" is pure glue; it simply attaches trailing terms to a selbri, so that you can get the semantics of a full bridi where the grammar allows only a selbri, notably in descriptions. The bridi underlying the description in your sample sentence is: bajra fo lo'e dargu something runs via the-typical road and to make this a description, we insert the glue around the trailing sumti, including its place marker. -- cowan@snark.thyrsus.com ...!uunet!cbmvax!snark!cowan e'osai ko sarji la lojban