From cbmvax!uunet!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!iad Sat May 4 13:05:59 1991 Return-Path: Date: Sat May 4 13:05:59 1991 From: "Ivan Derzhanski" Message-Id: <9105041512.AA25466@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu> To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Re: The culture gismu Status: RO I wanted to raise this question myself. I procrastinated under the pretext of being too busy, but now that other people have spoken up, I'll join the show. >From: jimc@math.ucla.edu :Somewhat agreeing with Arthur Protin: despairing of covering adequately :the enormous range of cultures, religions, nations, etc., I suggest that :the whole lot be chucked and that le'avla be required for them. I support this proposal. Even if it is not officially accepted, I already see myself boycotting them. :How would you feel if your native culture were left out? Particularly if :your arch-rival had a gismu? I don't know how many lojbanis and lojbanis-to-be are there whose native cultures are left out in the cold, but I happen to be one, and I say that it is a very unpleasant feeling. The Synopsis says: "The most important of these words [klogi'u. - I.D.] are the klogi'u representing the major cultures, languages, nations, and religions of the world." Who the hell has the right to proclaim some cultures major to others? Bulgaria has contributed quite a bit to the treasury of world culture in the last thirteen centuries. So what if there are only eight millions of us? Re the arch-rival, I suppose the Greeks would qualify (we have fought innumerable wars, as have done all neighbours in Europe). Now I see no logic (and Lojban is supposed to contain at least _some_ of this stuff!) in the asymmetry which arises when, say, one of the two Balkanic tongues should be called {le xelbau} and the other {le bangu po loi nairbylgaria} (N.N., p.c.). Now before someone says "this guy is being bilious because he is personally offended", well, I may be to a certain extent, but I won't be satisfied if I get a gismu (which won't happen). I may speak for the Koreans next time. Nick said that cultural names should be gismuified because they are used in many a tanru. When I think of cultural tanrus, one of the first things that comes to my mind is "Persian carpet". Let's see. Iran is a huge country, which has been there for at least two millennia and and a half. Speaking of culture, the classical Persian poetry is second to nothing I have ever heard of. Lo and behold, Iran is not on the list, yet half a dozen Arab countries are (but, mind you, _not_ all of them). Or how about the Turks? Not just the Turkish nation (although it sure as hell deserves at least as much as Morocco), but the whole mass of Turkic people who inhabit a large part of Asia, going deep into Siberia. How are they minor to the Semites? Why is the Scottish nationality on the list, but not the Irish or the Welsh one? What are we going to call Swahili, a language with many times more speakers than Hebrew? Aren't the Georgians going to reach for their daggers if they see themselves brought under the "Soviet culture" umbrella? etc. etc. etc. ad nauseatum. So what shall we do? : -- jimc - Ivan P.S. BTW, it is Urdu, not Urdi. And the word {baxso} for Malay-Indonesian culture/nation is a big mystery. "Bahasa", a word of Sanskrit origin, means simply `language'. Any language. Ivan A. Derzhanski iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu MB 1766 / Brandeis University How do you know that this life P.O.Box 9110 / Waltham, MA 02254-9110 / USA isn't another world's hell?