From cbmvax!uunet!ctr.columbia.edu!shoulson Fri May 24 16:41:18 1991 Return-Path: From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Date: Fri May 24 16:41:18 1991 Message-Id: <9105242018.AA12155@relay1.UU.NET> To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Beginner's Ramblings Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!shoulson Status: RO hey. I've been reading this list for a while, and struggling to understand Lojban off and on. First off, I have a question that's been bugging me since I read it in the lesson weeks ago. In lesson #5, page 5-46, there is a sentence: . . . .i ba vo kruca ko carna klama le zunle [How do you do ellipses in Lojban, anyway? I haven't got my materials here...] The translation given is, "After four intersections, turningly-go to the left." (the sentence is part of directions to a place.) Now, shouldn't 'ko' be simply absorbed into the place-structure of 'kruca'? I looked up the places of 'kruca' once, but I don't remember past the second place (or even if there are any more places), but as I understand it, the first part of this phrase should translate to, "[Be such that] (something) later intersects you ..." Actually, that doesn't handle the 'vo', and I don't recall exactly how numbers and sumti and bridi interreact. Go easy on me, I'm a newbie and I don't have my reference stuff. Maybe "Be such that four somethings later intersect you..." After all, you have 'kruce' with its first place unspecified (unless 'vo' handles that), why shouldn't its second place be 'ko'? It's as good a sumti as any! Then what would the rest mean? I suppose that terminators would handle this right. Let's just use 'le kruce' instead of 'vo'; I'm uncertain with numbers. I would guess that .i ba le kruce ku ko carna klama le zunle or something would work. So long as I'm going out on a limb, I might as well put in my little attempt at simple translation. I tried to translate the beginning of the Doors' song _People Are Strange_. In English: People are strange / When you're a stranger; Faces look ugly / When you're alone. Women seem wicked / When you're unwanted; Streets are uneven / When you're down. My mangled Lojban: loi prenu cu cizra .inaja do ca fange .i loi flira cu simlu to'e melbu .inaja do ca na se kansa .i loi ninmu cu mabla simlu .inaja do ca na se djica .i loi klaji cu to'e xutla .inaja do ca badri fa'o Numerous comments: I use 'loi' all the time. Should it be "lo'i"? Or something else? I don't much care for ".inaja." I want a way to say "if but not necessarily only if." I assume there's a better way. I copied this usage from lojbab's translation of _Language_. Does the use of "ca" make sense? I mean to get across the sense that faces look ugly if you're down at the time (hence the English 'when'). Should "mabli" in line 5 be "palci"? Am I using to'e right? Is there a better way to express these things? Should I be using the tanru I use? What would be better? I realize that some lexeme UI words would probably belong here, but I'm not positive which to use or even if I'd want them there. There's something unsettling about the unemotionality you get without them which fits the mood of the song. Or not. How would I continue? In order to keep the sentence order more or less parallel to the english, I need a forethought "if" sentence-joiner. I'm kinda fuzzy on conjunctions in general and conditionals in specific, so I'm afraid to try. I had to lose some of the punch of the English by picking apart the meanings of "strange" (into cizra and fange). Such is the curse of translation. What do you all think? co'omi'e mark. clsn. (hmm. I'm not sure about that spelling for my last name. maybe culsyn. or clsyn. or culsn. The trouble is that clsn. is probably best given the usual conventions for pronunciation of vocalic consonants, but it leaves you in the dark as to syllabication. Perhaps c,ls,n. would be better. But not really.)