Return-Path: Date: Wed, 29 May 91 11:07:44 EDT From: "Arthur W. Protin Jr." (GC-ACCURATE) To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Re: cleft place structures Message-Id: <9105291107.aa13687@COR4.PICA.ARMY.MIL> Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Wed May 29 14:04:26 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!PICA.ARMY.MIL!protin Folks, I guess I responded to lojbab's request too soon. The systemization that I spoke up for has little or nothing to do with the problem under discussion. Sorry. Without many examples to bias my interpretation of those gismu definitions, I would have tried to elipse all of the sentence (I wanted the lojban word here but I forget which one it is "bridi"?) of "I paint-spread red on the wall" except for "paint-spread". I would look up a cmavo to abstact the brivda (again, I am without my cheat sheet), something like "lo". The result would have been like: mi galfi le blanu bitmu le xunre bitmu lo cinta preja I modify the blue wall into the red wall by the "relation" paint-spread. Now, I am sure that "lo" is not the right word because the right one probably needs a terminator. (PS. the use of "le" in the examples has changed my mind about a needed terminator.) The closest thing in English to what I would do is the gerund, a verb that becomes a noun by its usage. Thus the translation would more figuratively be: I modify the blue wall into the red wall by paint-spreading. This has the obvious drawback for computers and other droids that there is an implied sentence that can only be constructed by the semantic content of the original. The implied sentence (guessing at the place structure of "preja" and using HH as the past indicator): mi HH preja le xunre cinta le blanu bitmu I did spread the red paint on the blue wall. The revised place structure and its sample usage don't buy much since a x1/x4 exchange indicator would suffice with the old place structure (and leaving the displaced x1 elipsed). And suppose I want to elipse or otherwise omit the event/process (relation) by which the modification was accomplished but still identify the agent that brought about the modification. thank you all, Art Arthur Protin These are my personal views and do not reflect those of my boss or this installation.