From lojbab Wed Jun 5 07:12:50 1991 Return-Path: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 07:11 EDT From: lojbab (Bob LeChevalier) To: lojban-list Subject: response to jimc on 'quantified questions' Status: RO jimc asks: >In putting together some sentences for the L.A. group I was hunting for >a cmavo which I'm sure is there, but which I couldn't find. Can someone >please translate: > > which cat caught the rat > >The problem word is "which" in the outside quantifier site. Also inside, >if different. I have trouble relating your question to inside/outside quantifiers. The quantifier question is "xo", which would serve your needs for a variety of questions, but you need to be more explicit as to what this English sentence means. Following are a couple of possibilities. There are no specific set of possible cats in mind: ma poi mlatu cu kavbu le ratcu what that cats captures the rat What cat(s) catch(es) the rat? The best way to make this explicitly singular is ma poi mlatu pamei cu kavbu le ratcu what that cattishly one-somes captures the rat What cat alone catches the rat? You have a specific set of cats in mind, which you can order by some rule permitting them to be numbered: le mlatu xomoi cu kavbu le ratcu The cattishly what-th thing captures the rat Which in order of the cats catches the rat? [I prefer this tanru order, but reversing the order gives approximately the same meaning, with a more confusing grammar if actually called upon to specify the ordering rule place of "moi"] le xomoi mlatu cu kavbu le ratcu The what-th cat captures the rat le xomoi be fi le javni be'o mlatu cu kavbu le ratcu The what-th ordered by the rule cat captures the rat le mlatu xomoi be fi le javni cu kavbu le ratcu The cattish-ly what-th thing as ordered by the rule captures the rat The latter needs no "be'o" because the "cu" adequately terminates. Furthermore, you don't leave the presumably important "mlatu" hanging so long You can also use "co" inversion: le mlatu co xomoi be fi le javni cu kavbu le ratcu The cat of-type what-th ordered by the rule captures the rat which easily converts into the restrictive clause version: le mlatu poi [ke'a] xomoi be fi le javni cu kavbu le ratcu The cat which [it] is-what-th ordered by the rule captures the rat Questions about inside and outside quantifiers change the meaning as follows. The parenthetical quantifier is the default value for "le" that is implied when no value is specified in that quantifier place. It is not usually stated: xo le [su'o] mlatu cu kavbu le ratcu How-many-of the [at-least-some] cats capture the rat [ro] le xo mlatu cu kavbu le ratcu [Each-of] the how-many cats capture the rat lojbab