Return-Path: id AA02464; Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:36:23 EDT Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:36:23 EDT Message-Id: <9106061436.AA02464@grackle.UUCP> To: ai-lab!nsn@ee.mu.oz.au Cc: ai-lab!lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com, bob@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: ai-lab!nsn%ee.mu.oz.au's message of Thu, 06 Jun 91 13:44:29 +1000 <9106060344.AA12130@munagin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> Subject: hail, rain place structures Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob From: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob Sender: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Thu Jun 6 20:01:30 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!ai.mit.edu!grackle!bob How come there isn't more debate on place structures anyway? Oh, I forgot: we don't have the current ones. *sigh* No one ever said you should not attempt to say things in Lojban just because you haven't got a language! .i na ku su'o da zo'u da cusku lu It is false that there is at least one x such that x says quote ko troci lo nu cusku bau lo lojbo make true for you try/attain a process of expressing in language lojban nagi'a lo lojbo cu zasti li'u only if Lojban exists end quote Oops, please bear with me; that was not what I meant to say. .i o'o ta'onai forbearance returning to main point I want to say something about Lojban, not something in Lojban. au mi cusku lo sidbo be lo lojbo desire I say a real idea about Lojban gi'e na'e cusku zo'e bau lo lojbo and other than express something unspecified in language lojban. Some of the definitions from the 8/9/88 Baselined Gismu list confuse me. lo si'o lo se valsi at least one real idea/concept abstraction of a real meaning of word be fi lo lojbo cu cfipu mi in (third place) language lojban confuses me I am bothered by the lack of parallism for the definitions of rain, fall and hail: carvi cav rain rains to...from... farlu fal fa'u fall fall to...from... bratu hail hail of...falling to...from... The place structure for `rain' is fine. Droplets of water rain to the grass from a cloud; rocks rain on a town from a volcano. lo jacdirgo cu carvi lo srasu lo cimdilnu water-drops rain on grass from a wet-cloud [djacu dirgo] [cilmo dilnu] .i lo glaroi cu carvi lo tcadu lo pojca'a hot-rocks rain on a town from an exploding mountain [glara rokci] [spoja cmana] `Fall' is fine, too; it is like `rain'. lo jacdirgo cu farlu lo srasu lo cimdilnu water-drops fall on grass from a wet-cloud But `hail' is a problem. Raining and hailing are different ways things fall from the sky; I think the definitions should be parallel. One should say: lo rokci cu bratu lo tcadu lo cmana rocks hail onto a town from a mountain .i lo bisli dirgo cu bratu lo dertu lo nu xlatcima ice drops hail onto the earth from the process of bad-weather [xlali tcima] I thought about `snow', too. In English, `snow' is both a kind of falling and a form of substance; but after some consideration, I think that the form of substance is the more interesting aspect of the concept, `snow' is OK as is: snime si'e snow a quantity/expanse of snow Thus one can say lo nu lo xrula pezli cu farlu lo foldi lo brife cu simsa lo nu lo snime cu farlu zu'i zu'i lo nu the event of lo xrula pezli cu farlu lo foldi lo brife flower leaves fall on the field from the wind [petals] cu simsa lo nu lo snime cu farlu zu'i zu'i is similar to an event of snow falling to and from typical places Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Rattlesnake Mountain Road (413) 298-4725 or (617) 253-8568 or Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (617) 876-3296 (for messages)