Return-Path: <cbmvax!uunet!math.ucla.edu!jimc>
From: cbmvax!uunet!math.ucla.edu!jimc
Return-Path: <jimc@math.ucla.edu>
Message-Id: <9106121901.AA06557@luna.math.ucla.edu>
To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com
Subject: Place structure issues
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 12:01:50 -0700
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jun 12 22:58:13 1991
X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!math.ucla.edu!jimc

I have a feeling that we may not have a clear view of the issues currently
being worked out in connection with place structures.  So here's my view
(obviously from my perspective):

1.  When explicit words or linguistic transformations cause a sumti to
be in a sub-bridi (abstract sumti or subordinate clause), and when you
need the sumti to be at main level, how do you get access to it?

2.  When the user naturally wants to put a sumti at main level, but logic
and/or definitions demand that it be buried in an abstract sumti or clause,
what happens?  E.g. he wants to say "the cat kills the rat".

    a.  We tell the user to say the sub-bridi with explicit words, e.g.
	le mlatu cu gasnu/rinka  le nu            le ratcu cu morsi
	the cat     does /causes (abstract sumti) the rat  is dead

    b.  We tell the user to use a tanru and trust to "common sense" to
	straighten out the meaning:
	le mlatu cu morsi gasnu fi le ratcu
	the cat     death does  (to) the rat

    c.  We promise to provide a suitable lujvo for all the *numerous*
	combinations of this general kind.  The example is in Old Loglan
	since I haven't seen any official list of Lojban lujvo.
	le katma ga mordu le ratcu
	the cat     kills the rat

    d.  We provide rules by which regularly constructed lujvo (diklujvo)
	and/or tanru can be interpreted and transformed into "deep
	structures" as shown in alternative "a".

3.  When a non-abstract sumti appears in an abstract slot, what do we do?
    e.g. "I am angry about the mess"

    a.  Get the sumti referent same as for any other argument slot, and 
	hope the result means something.  (e.g. if "the mess" really 
	refers to an event rather than the ostensible "the messy thing".)

    b.  Come up with an alternate predicate, create an abstract sumti
	with that selbri, and drop the non-abstract sumti into one of
	its places.  (e.g. "I try the door" transforms "I try *to open*
	the door" or something like that.)	

		-- jimc