Message-Id: <9106061349.AA28901@relay2.UU.NET>
From: cbmvax!uunet!ctr.columbia.edu!shoulson
Date: Thu Jun  6 20:01:22 1991
To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com
Subject: xebro
Status: RO

Here's something that bugged me when first I gazed upon the gismu list.  As
I understand it, cultural gismu are based on the culture's own words for
itself (or the thing in question).  N.B.  I am entirely begging the
question of whether or not cultural gismu deserve to exist at all.  I'm
just dealing with the current situation.  Apologies to la .iVAN. and la
nitcion. etc. etc.

That said, here's my question:  Where'd you get 'xebro' for "Hebrew/Israeli
culture"?  The Hebrew word for "Hebrew" is `ivrit, where the ` is
pronounced in most modern dialects as just a glottal (i.e. no great shakes
at the beginning of a word), but was originally pharyngeal, which
pronunciation is preserved in some dialects as well as modern Arabic (e.g.,
the initial sound in the Arabic word for "Arab.")  Now, if you go by the
early pronunciation, I suppose 'x' is a good transcription of that sound,
after all, it's what's used for Arabic words with it.  Besides, you can't
start with a vowel.  The 'v' is actually pronounced as 'b' in one or two
modern dialects (as it is the same letter as 'b', distinguished only by a
dot.  Letters in Hebrew are weird, and can have more than one pronunciation
depending on the word position.  This is indicated by dots, if you're lucky
and the writer felt like writing them.  It's NOT like Arabic, where the
dots distinguish letters.)  Still, almost all modern pronunciations, and
certainly the standard Israeli pronunciation, uses the 'v' sound.
Similarly, where'd the 'e' vowel come from?  I'd have expected an 'i' to
match the Hebrew.  Maybe 'xivro'?  The 'vr' combination is legal.  Even
losing the 't' at the end is no big deal, since it's not part of the root
(neither is the vowel, of course, but it sounds better anyway.)

I guess not much can be done about 'jegvo'.  The word seems to have the bad
luck to be practically non-gismuable.  The correct vowels are not known,
but the consonants are Y, H, V (orig. W), and H.  Considering we can't
start with the 'y' sound, and 'h' is forbidden, and even 'x' is tough to
combine with other letters, 'jegvo' seems to be the least of the evils (Ah!
Blasphemy! :-) )

I cannot complain about 'semto' either, since Jews do not hold exclusive
claim to the title.  Many words which have 'sh' sounds in Hebrew have 's'
sounds in Arabic, and I assume that 'Shem' (after whom semitism is named)
is no exception; also, there are more Arabic speakers than Hebrew speakers.

Well, that about covers it for this pointless critique.  One more point,
though, even though I said I wouldn't address this question.  While I was
looking at the gismu list, the point was driven home with great strength:
something really has to be done about those cultural gismu.  They seem to
be assigned very haphazardly, and not at all fairly.  There are a hell of a
lot of gismu for some peoples, few or none for others.  An example near and
dear to me (don't take offense, it's just that I noticed it):  There's
muslo for Muslim as well as xrabo for Arabic, plus something like *ten*
gismu for various Arabic countries and cultures and languages, while
there's just xebro to handle Israel, Hebrew, and Judaism, and just about
nothing to handle most of Africa.  Oh, and BTW, is Allah to be considered
synonymous with jegvo?  That would likely get on the nerves of a lot of
Muslims.  Maybe Allah rates a gismu, or maybe neither does.  cevni may have
to cover it.

Sorry to rant and rave, I'm not a fanatic, really!

co'o'mi'e mark.