Return-Path: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 91 05:18 EDT From: lojbab (Bob LeChevalier) To: lojban-list Subject: response to Nick and Mark on ba'i and BAI in general Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Tue Jul 9 05:18:59 1991 X-From-Space-Address: lojbab Nick says in response to Mark Shoulson: >{ti xatra be'i la lojbab.} is wrong, and {ti ne be'i la lojbab. xatra} >is right. I disagree. Both are acceptable, and I prefer the former. They have some semantic differences as predicates. The first is a 2-place predicate relating la lojbab. and ti. This is a valid semantic relation, and is certainly tied to xatra. It seems quite reasonable to tie an author onto the letter concept expressed by xatra. The second is a 1-place predicate with subordinate information. The second is more glico, but not necessarily mal-. You could argue based on Nick's reasoning (which I won;t repeat) that all secondary places of English nouns in Lojban selbri could be expressed as non-restrictive information on the x1 place which is the 'noun' proper. But this is less-Lojbanic, as it asserts a non-equality in the nature of the relationship between the sender and the letter. The sender is incidental information that is less important. Thus "mi bajra seka'a le zarci" (I run with-destination the store) can be expressed as "mi ne seka'a le zarci cu bajra" (I, with destination the store, run/am-a-runner). The latter better supports English nounal phrasing. The real difference lies in the truth conditions. In the former version the bridi is false if either this is not a letter or la lojbab sis not send it. In the latter, since the sender is information incidental to the claim, its truth or falsity has no bearing on that of the main bridi. It can have a separate and clear truth value if expanded to the corresponding noi relative clause, but a 'ne BAI' phrase is so incomplete and non-specific as an implied bridi that I can see lots of ways to weasel the truth value of the subordination. For this reason, I tend to avoid ne/pe usage except for certain BAI members like mau and me'a, using the noi/poi instead. But I still prefer working at the grammatically simpler main bridi level when I can. It seems more Lojbanic to me. lojbab