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From: cbmvax!uunet!ctr.columbia.edu!shoulson
Date: Tue Jul 23 23:00:09 1991
To: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com
Subject: Long translation
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Tue Jul 23 23:00:09 1991
X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!ctr.columbia.edu!shoulson

OK, all.  Here's the translation I've been promising you.  It's not long,
but my discussion is.  You've been warned.

I did the song "By the Rivers of Babylon," translating from the Hebrew.  I
took a few liberties here and there, and elsewhere was far more faithful
than good sense would indicate.  You'll see.  Just to be difficult, I'm
putting in the original, with my own, inconsistent transliteration (plus
punctuation), as well as my own faily literal translation to English.

`Al naharot bavel, sham yashavnu gam bakhinu b'zokhrenu et tsion.  `Al
`aravim b'tokhah talinu kinorotenu.  ki sham sh'elunu shovenu divrei shir
v'tolalenu simkha, "shiru lanu mishir tzion!" "eick nashir et shir YHVH `al
admat neikhar?"  'Im 'eshkakhekh y'rushalayim, tishkakh y'mini.  Tidbak
l'shoni l'khiki 'im lo 'ezk'reikhi, 'im lo 'a`ale et y'rushalayim `al rosh
simkhati.  Z'khor YHVH livnei edom et yom y'rushalayim, ha'omrim "`Aru,
`aru, `ad hay'sod bah!"  Bat bavel hash'duda, 'ashrei shey'shalem lakh et
g'mulekh shegamalt lanu.  'Ashrei sheyokhez v'nifets `olalayikh el hasela.

On the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, also wept, in our remembering Zion.
On willows therein [i.e. in babylon] we hung our lyres.  For there
requested of us our captors words of song and our hangings happiness (???
the Hebrew is very unclear, and not just to me).  "Sing to us of the song
of Zion!"  "How shall we sing the song of YHVH on an alien's soil?"  If I
forget you, Jerusalem, [let] my right [hand] forget [zo'e.  usually
taken to be 'its skill'].  [Let] my tongue stick to my palate if I do not
remember you, if I don't elevate Jerusalem above my head happiness (or, the
chief of my joys).  Remember, YHVH, to the children of Edom (Babylon) the
day of Jersalem, those who say, "Destroy! Destroy! To its foundation!"
Violated daughter of Babylon, happy (praiseworthy?) be [he] who will pay
you back the dealings which you dealt with us.  Happy (praiseworth?) be [he]
who will clutch and dash your suckling infants upon the rock.


Kinda violent, no?  But it's short and interesting.  Ready?

ni'oni'oni'o la'elo'u vi lo rirxe be la baVEL. le'u
<(newnewnew) the-referent of "At the rivers of Babel."
This is okay for the title, right?  Do I need error quotes, or could I use
lu/li'u?

ni'oni'o
vi lo rirxe be ko'a goi la baVEL. ki
mi pu gu'e zutse gi klaku mu'i lenu mi morji la tsi,ION.
<(newnew) At the rivers of it1 which is babel (set default), I/we both sit 
<and weep motivated-by the event: we remember Zion.
Is this the correct use of "ki"?  I do it because I want to refer to the
place once more.  I don't really need to set ko'a, I only use it once, but
whatthehell.  There's no conjunction in the Hebrew, just "also" (which
sounds weird in Hebrew too), so I translated that using forethought
connectives.  I think it gets the feeling across.  Note the use of "mi" as
"we"!  I'll translate it as "we" until the original starts using "I".  The
original links the remembering act with a preposition which could mean
"when" or "instrumentally with" or heaven knows what else.  It's usually
given as "when," but I'm translating it as a motive.  I should probably use
"pu" to set all this in the past, but I'm not bothering.

.i fi loi ricxarava poi nenri ko'a ku fa [tu'a] mi dadri'a lei mi
zgitcirkinora
<on the mass of 'xarava'-trees which are inside it1, [the act of] we
<hang-cause our mass-of-things-called 'kinor'-music-tools'
Just to be difficult, I'm taking my le'avla from the Hebrew, not English.
I had to add an extra vowel to 'kinor' to make it work, and the initial
consonant of "`arava" isn't an 'x' (in modern Hebrew, it's usually a glottal
stop), but that's life.  I tend to be a fairly literal translator, hence the
contortions to keep the word-order more or less the same.  Cope.  Does
zgitcirkinora work for a le'avla of musical instruments?

.i ki cpedu fe mi fa lei kavbu be mi fi lei sanga valsi 
joi lenu lemi se dandu cu pe'a gleki po'a
<(recall default tense) request of-us (subj) the-mass-of captors (of-us)
<song-words mixed-with the-event: our hangings (figurative) "are-happy"
<(end fig.)
Is this right for "ki"?  I was getting the "there" from the original.  I
know it's not necessary, I told you I get literal.  Similar FA shenanigans
going on here.  The hebrew for the end of this sentence is very weird, and
there are many explanations.  I'm taking the interpretation the Babylonians
want the things hung on the trees (the lyres) filled with happiness.  It's
an acceptable reading.  I probably don't need the figurative marker, but
it makes sense.

.ilu .uunai .ionai ko sanga fi mi fe le selsanga pe la tsi,ION. li'u
<(quote) (cruelty!) (disrespect!) (imper)you! sing to-us the thing-sung
<which-is-associated with Zion (unquote)
I went a little over the top with UI words in this.  Perhaps peku'u would
be better than just pe, but the Hebrew is loose, so I can be.

.i paunai mi kakne lenu sanga le selsanga pe le jegvo vi tumla pe le
fange kei ri'a ma vau .uinaicairo'i .a'onai
<(no question) we are-capable-of the-event: sing the sing-sung
<which-is-associated-with YHVH at land which-is-of the alien (end event)
<mentally-caused-by what? (end sumti) (intense sadness!) (despair!)
Using Nick's method for rhetorical question.  Maybe it should have been
makau?  I could have used gugda instead of tumla and avoided some problems,
but the original implies "earth" and not "country."  I think I needed the
'kei' I left in to keep the ri'a from getting sucked into the lenu.  Note
the UIs again.

ni'o lenu mi da'i sismo'i do doi .iyrucalo,iim. nibli (se jalge?)
lenu lemi pritu xance cu sismo'i
<(new) the-event: I (supposing) cease-remember you, O Jerusalem, entails
<(has result) the-event: my right hand cease-remembers.
I'm disregarding Nick's advice here in two places.  First off, I found a
better hypothetical discursive than ru'a, namely da'i.  Also, I'm using
sismo'i instead of mo'u morji, partly because I think it may be marginally
better, partly because morji shows up in the next sentence corresponding to
a different verb in the original, and this way it doesn't seem too
redundant; at least it sounds different.  I'm not really sure about
sismo'i, though.  Maybe morsisti would be better, and more likely they both
stink.  Which works better, nibli or se jalge?  The Hebrew sounds strange
with no object for "forget", but Lojban has no trouble. .ui

.i lemi tance cu se lasna fi le gapru korbi be lemi moklu
.inaja mi na morji do gi'a na se vajni la .iyrucalo,iim. semau
le ralju be le'i pluka be mi.
<my tongue is-fastened to the above-border of my mouth. Only-if
<I not remember you or not regard-as-important Jerusalem more-than
<the principal among the-set-of pleasers of me.
The two "if" clauses have no conjunction in Hebrew, so I join them into one
and use gi'a.  It could be gi'e or whatever.  That's what you get for
relying on a translator.  I think I got "elevate Jerusalem above my chief
joy" across rather well with "se vajni la .iyrucalo,iim. semau le ralju be
le'i pluka be mi."  Bummer that I had to use an "o" instead of an "a" in
Jerusalem's name, but you can't have "la" in a cmene, and "ly" didn't do
it.  In some sentences and some dialects, you can have almost an "o" sound
there.

ni'o ko morji doi le jegvo sera'a lei lu'a panzi be la .eDOM.
noi bacru lu ko daspo .i ko daspo ji'e le jicmu [li'u] ku'o 
le djedi pe la .iyrucalo,iim.
<(new) (imper)you! remember O YHVH regarding the-mass-of (figurative)
<"the children of Edom" (end fig.) who-incidentally say (quote) (imper)you!
<destroy. (imper)you! destroy to-limit the foundation [(unquote)] (end rel
<clause) the day associated-with Jerusalem
Note that for someone who made a real stink about having jegvo as a
gismu, I'm using it pretty easily.  Goes to show you that I'm not very
consistent.  The original mentioned "The foundation thereof," but there was
nothing to refer to, so I left it out.  Note that I (horrors!) changed the
word order to get the relative clause where it made sense, at the expense
of confusing the reader.  Again, I think I need that ku'o, but I can
probably elide the li'u.  I'm making heavy use of pe, which isn't very
specific, but then neither is the original.  I used to have figurative
markers, which probably weren't necessary, instead of lu'a.  I think lu'a
is better.  It may also be superfluous (this is actually nearly literal).
In fact, if I could find the gismu for "descendent" (I know there is
something which means that!) I could drop it entirely.  It would be quite
accurate.  BTW, does it screw things up that I use doi after using "ko"?  I
mean, I'd think that "ko" still refers to Jerusalem (the last "do" used).

ni'o pe'a doi tixnu be la baVEL. noi zo'e vlile tegau ke'a do'u
se gleki le venfu be tegau do bei ledo se gasnu befi mi vau cai .iunai
.i se gleki le jgari je marxa be ledo verba sepi'o lo rokci vau cai .iunai
fa'o
<(new) (figurative start) O daughter of Babel who-incidentally-is-such-that
<(something) was-violent with-passive her [the daughter], (end voc) happy
<is the avenger (with-passive you, for your action done-to us) (end sumti)
<(intense emotion!) (hate!).  Happy is the clutcher-and-smasher (of your
<child(ren), with tool the rock) (end sumti) (intense emotion!) (hate!)
Here I probably need the figurative marker, though perhaps with a shorter
scope.  The Hebrew is kind of vague about the "violated" word, it's from
the same root now used for "piracy" and such.  I think my translation is
sufficiently vague.  Is the use of tegau okay there?  I explicitly used
zo'e in order to counter the convention of putting ke'a in the first place
of a relative clause when it's unspecified.  I needed do'u to close off the
rel. clause and vocative so as not to make trouble.  Actually, I probably
could have elided it.  I sort of like the way I used se gleki to get VS
order (since I didn't care about the object).  Otherwise the x1 place would
have a zo'e in it and it would require a fa to counter and all.  I think se
works nicely.  venfu really should have an object (whom the vengence is
being visited upon).  It leads to cleft places, perhaps, but it can be
necessary.  I might take vengence on Nick for something Bob did to me.  I
used tegau for it, but I shouldn't have had to.  Maybe I went a little far
with the UI words, but they seemed right.  As before, I closed off the
bridi with vau so that the UI words wouldn't stick just to the last sumti,
but to the whole bridi.  I think le jgari je marxa works well, even though
the Hebrew seems to imply more of a gi'e link.  I think the je is more
powerful.  After all, Hebrew doesn't have a je like Lojban does.

And now, just to eat bandwidth, here's the whole thing, all at once.  

ni'oni'oni'o la'elo'u vi lo rirxe be la baVEL. le'u ni'oni'o vi lo rirxe be
ko'a goi la baVEL. ki mi pu gu'e zutse gi klaku mu'i lenu mi morji la
tsi,ION.  .i fi loi ricxarava poi nenri ko'a ku fa [tu'a] mi dadri'a lei mi
zgitcirkinora .i ki cpedu fe mi fa lei kavbu be mi fi lei sanga valsi joi
lenu lemi se dandu cu pe'a gleki po'a .ilu .uunai .ionai ko sanga fi mi fe
le selsanga pe la tsi,ION. li'u .i paunai mi kakne lenu sanga le selsanga
pe le jegvo vi tumla pe le fange kei ri'a ma vau .uinaicairo'i .a'onai ni'o
lenu mi da'i sismo'i do doi .iyrucalo,iim. nibli (se jalge?)  lenu lemi
pritu xance cu sismo'i .i lemi tance cu se lasna fi le gapru korbi be lemi
moklu .inaja mi na morji do gi'a na se vajni la .iyrucalo,iim. semau le
ralju be le'i pluka be mi.  ni'o ko morji doi le jegvo sera'a lei lu'a
panzi be la .eDOM.  noi bacru lu ko daspo .i ko daspo ji'e le jicmu [li'u]
ku'o le djedi pe la .iyrucalo,iim.  ni'o pe'a doi tixnu be la baVEL. noi
zo'e vlile tegau ke'a do'u se gleki le venfu be tegau do bei ledo se gasnu
befi mi vau cai .iunai .i se gleki le jgari je marxa be ledo verba sepi'o
lo rokci vau cai .iunai fa'o

Hah!  and I reflowed the sentences, so you're reading it as a computer
parsing sounds would!  Hell, I'm a pain.

~mark
 (bracing for merciless "corrections")