Return-Path: From: cbmvax!uunet!ee.mu.OZ.AU!nsn Message-Id: <9107240649.AA11053@munagin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> To: Mark Shoulson Cc: lojban-list@snark.thyrsus.com, nsn@ee.mu.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Long translation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 23 Jul 91 17:06:52 EDT." <9107232107.AA11178@relay2.UU.NET> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 16:49:20 +1000 Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jul 24 06:59:16 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!ee.mu.OZ.AU!nsn Mark Shoulson, I hereby appoint you to cool-dude-like status for helping me saturate the list with lojbanistani (the vernacular of the residents of Lojbanistan, as opposed to lojbani or even (horro!) lojban.) Here's a comment or two: >`Al naharot bavel, sham yashavnu gam bakhinu b'zokhrenu et tsion. `Al >`aravim b'tokhah talinu kinorotenu. ki sham sh'elunu shovenu divrei shir >v'tolalenu simkha, "shiru lanu mishir tzion!" "eick nashir et shir YHVH `al >admat neikhar?" 'Im 'eshkakhekh y'rushalayim, tishkakh y'mini. Tidbak >l'shoni l'khiki 'im lo 'ezk'reikhi, 'im lo 'a`ale et y'rushalayim `al rosh >simkhati. Z'khor YHVH livnei edom et yom y'rushalayim, ha'omrim "`Aru, >`aru, `ad hay'sod bah!" Bat bavel hash'duda, 'ashrei shey'shalem lakh et >g'mulekh shegamalt lanu. 'Ashrei sheyokhez v'nifets `olalayikh el hasela. > >On the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, also wept, in our remembering Zion. >On willows therein [i.e. in babylon] we hung our lyres. For there >requested of us our captors words of song and our hangings happiness (??? >the Hebrew is very unclear, and not just to me). "Sing to us of the song >of Zion!" "How shall we sing the song of YHVH on an alien's soil?" If I >forget you, Jerusalem, [let] my right [hand] forget [zo'e. usually >taken to be 'its skill']. [Let] my tongue stick to my palate if I do not >remember you, if I don't elevate Jerusalem above my head happiness (or, the >chief of my joys). Remember, YHVH, to the children of Edom (Babylon) the >day of Jersalem, those who say, "Destroy! Destroy! To its foundation!" >Violated daughter of Babylon, happy (praiseworthy?) be [he] who will pay >you back the dealings which you dealt with us. Happy (praiseworth?) be [he] >who will clutch and dash your suckling infants upon the rock. > > >Kinda violent, no? But it's short and interesting. Ready? > >ni'oni'oni'o la'elo'u vi lo rirxe be la baVEL. le'u ><(newnewnew) the-referent of "At the rivers of Babel." >This is okay for the title, right? Do I need error quotes, or could I use >lu/li'u? A single sumti is a grammatical utterance. The error quotes are not needed. >ni'oni'o >vi lo rirxe be ko'a goi la baVEL. ki >mi pu gu'e zutse gi klaku mu'i lenu mi morji la tsi,ION. The {ki} goes after the {vi}. It's not a terminator, and where it's at right now is a sumtcita. Don't know what it'd mean with mi as the se tcita, but as a tense on its own {ki} means "getting back to current reality." >.i fi loi ricxarava poi nenri ko'a ku fa [tu'a] mi dadri'a lei mi >zgitcirkinora >.i ki cpedu fe mi fa lei kavbu be mi fi lei sanga valsi >joi lenu lemi se dandu cu pe'a gleki po'a I'm 70% certain the {ki} here is wrong, and suspect the "there" is assumed. See what John says. >.i paunai mi kakne lenu sanga le selsanga pe le jegvo vi tumla pe le >fange kei ri'a ma vau .uinaicairo'i .a'onai {vi le tumla}. I'm not sure of my {paunai}, but can think of nothing better. >ni'o lenu mi da'i sismo'i do doi .iyrucalo,iim. nibli (se jalge?) >lenu lemi pritu xance cu sismo'i Having proposed what I did, I stick by it. Your phrase ain't that bad, but. If you don't use {lesi'o} in hypotheticals like here, when do you? I'd much prefer morsisti: forgetting is a cessation, not a kind of remembering. {sismo'i} makes me think of remembering to stop (indeed, my pseudo-diklujvo view of the world would necessitate that). I suppose it's safer not to use {mo'u}. >.i lemi tance cu se lasna fi le gapru korbi be lemi moklu >.inaja mi na morji do gi'a na se vajni la .iyrucalo,iim. semau >le ralju be le'i pluka be mi. I still don't like {.inaja}; it gives to my mind a very simplistic rendition of "if". I hate to say this, but I'd prefer the {ralju} expression to be a tanru. >ni'o ko morji doi le jegvo sera'a lei lu'a panzi be la .eDOM. >noi bacru lu ko daspo .i ko daspo ji'e le jicmu [li'u] ku'o >le djedi pe la .iyrucalo,iim. {doi jegvo}. Your use of {sera'a} as a shadow of the x2 of morji is ingenious, but I have a nagging doubt about it. I think the {ko} should be reassigned by a {doi} within the utterance. >ni'o pe'a doi tixnu be la baVEL. noi zo'e vlile tegau ke'a do'u >se gleki le venfu be tegau do bei ledo se gasnu befi mi vau cai .iunai >.i se gleki le jgari je marxa be ledo verba sepi'o lo rokci vau cai .iunai >fa'o tegau is dead in the 1990 gismu list (and the 1991 cmavo list). I'd go {ri'i} (the new {lifri} modal) rather than the current passive {gaunai}, and would even go so far as to use this nnewfangled {jai} thing: noi jairi'i vlile - who was the experiencer in someone's being violent. {ledo se gasnu} I would substitite by {tu'a do}, which means about the same, being an abbreviation of {lenu do co'e} (Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.) {sepi'o} tags an argument of the clutching and smashing, not of the being happy: {bei sepi'o} Minor nits. I was damn happy with your translation, Mark, and can only hope others are as happy with my own stuff. i doi mark mi do carmi sinma Bye for now.