Return-Path: Message-Id: <9110091846.AA10010@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Wed Oct 9 14:53:22 1991 Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!bob Sender: Lojban list Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was bob@GRACKLE.STOCKBRIDGE.MA.US From: cbmvax!uunet!GNU.AI.MIT.EDU!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!bob Subject: please, no passives X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Wed Oct 9 14:53:22 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN In lojban you can say mi klama le zarci I come/go to the (specific) market/store (I have in mind) or le zarci cu se klama me The market is gone to by me In English, the second sentence is passive. Manuals of style recommend you avoid the passive. In lojban, the second sentence illustrates conversion of places. I hope that people will avoid presuming that you should avoid conversion in Lojban just because you should avoid the passive in English. The two constructions are not parallel. Indeed, we have the opportunity to consider "le zarci cu se klama me" as an _active_ sentence with places switched so as to provide rhetorical emphasis. This makes lojban different from English. Please, do not use the term `passive' when you can use the term `conversion' and not drag with it an English presumption. thanks Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Rattlesnake Mountain Road (413) 298-4725 or (617) 253-8568 or Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (617) 876-3296 (for messages)