Return-Path: Message-Id: <9110152158.AA28055@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Tue Oct 15 18:29:11 1991 Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!gnu.ai.mit.edu!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!bob Sender: Lojban list Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was bob@GRACKLE.STOCKBRIDGE.MA.US From: cbmvax!uunet!GNU.AI.MIT.EDU!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!bob Subject: alternative translations X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu, bob@grackle.stockbridge.ma.us To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Tue Oct 15 18:29:11 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Here is an update on my suggestion for an alternative way to think about sentences in logban. Recently, I suggested an alternative form of definition in which the gismu is not itself defined, only the places it takes. For example, jukpa x1: x2: x3: With this form, the sumti are translated according the definition and the gismu is translated as `is/are in a relationship with'. Thus, le nanmu cu jukpa le sovda le zu'o febvi man cook egg activity-abstractor boil x1 gismu x2 x3 is translated as: x1: cooker, I have in mind, the man gismu: is in a relationship with x2: food-prepared, I have in mind, an egg or eggs x3: method-of-food-preparation, I have in mind, activity abstraction related to boiling [ta'o: By the way, I'm not sure whether zu'o, the activity abstractor, is appropriate here and would appreciate comments.] (Note that the place definitions for `jukpa' come first in this form of translation--"cooker that I have in mind, the man" and so on. The meanings of the place structures specified by the the sumti.) This form of translation appears to work for gismu that take two or more places, but fails for one place gismu. Here is a one place gismu: cakla x1: Consider: le sovda cu cakla egg chocolate x1 gismu The conventional translation for the sentence is: The egg or eggs that I have in mind is/are made of chocolate/contain chocolate. But with my newly suggested way of translating, I get the following x1: entity-made-of-chocolate, I have in mind, the egg gismu: is in a relationship with Clearly, this is no good. The entity-made-of-chocolate in not in a relationship with anything. The `is in a relationship with' phrase must be dropped in the case of single place gismu. I suggest keeping the same alternative definition form but translate the first place with `is', and only use the phrase `in a relationship with' if the gismu has two or more places. Thus, le sovda cu cakla egg chocolate x1 gismu is translated as x1: entity-made-of-chocolate, I have in mind, is the egg (Or, to be more long winded, "le sovda cu cakla" is tranlated as "I am making a claim that an entity is made of chocolate and that that entity is that specific thing I am calling an egg.") Here is another sentence: pe'a lo sovda cu narge zo'e figuratively, egg nut unspecified x1 gismu x2 Normally, we would translate this as : Figuratively speaking, an egg is the nut/hard-shelled-fruit of something unspecified. but we can also translate it, as: Figuratively speaking, x1: nut/hard-shelled-fruit is an egg gismu: in a (possibly unimportant) relationship with x2: something unspecified. The more flowing translation is easier for an English speaking reader to understand; but I contend that the second translation conveys the lojban more accurately: gismu define relationships among gismu. Here is a translation for a sentence containing the the famous (or infamous :-) five place `klama': mi klama le zarci le zdani le lalxu le karce x1: the comer/goer that I have in mind is I or we gismu: in a relationship with x2: a destination I have in mind, the market, x3: a departure-location I have in mind, the house, x4: a route I have in mind, the lake, x5: a means I have in mind, the car. Finally, we can translate le nanmu cu jukpa le sovda le zu'o febvi as: x1: the cooker is the (specific entity I call a) man gismu: in a relationship with x2: the food-prepared, that I have in mind, an egg or eggs, x3: and a method-of-food-preparation, that I have in mind, activity abstraction related to boiling Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu Rattlesnake Mountain Road (413) 298-4725 or (617) 253-8568 or Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (617) 876-3296 (for messages)