Return-Path: Message-Id: <9110030534.AA02982@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Thu Oct 3 07:46:27 1991 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Another, simpler, question X-To: dean%ANUBIS.NETWORK.COM@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan , Ken Taylor , List Reader Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Thu Oct 3 07:46:27 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN Almost, but not quite, equivalent. Starting with le nanmu cu citka le cripu This is identical to le nanmu le cripu cu citka and both have the same x1 and same x2. To put both sumti after citka, you must mark the first, because Lojban assumes that if there is no sumti before the selbri "citka" that you have omitted the x1. You must thus mark the x1 place with "fa" which says that the following is the x1 place: citka fa le nanmu le cripu Using "fe", the marker for the x2 place, you can derive even more forms basically mixing "fa le nanmu" "fe le cripu" and "citka" in all combinatoric orders, inserting a "cu" if either of the sumti is before the "citka". All of these are equivalent in a broad sense, the difference being one of emphasis: the thing at the front of the sentence is typical the thing of hiughest emphasis, and the thing at the end of secondary emphasis. The rules for emphasis are pragmatic mostly, and are based on our experiences rather than a formal prescription. If you insert "se", the result is a 'conversion' and 'equivalent' becones a trickier proposition. le cripu cu se citka le nanmu expresses the same relationship as the above sentences, but there is a minor difference in that the labels 'x1' and 'x2' are reversed, and you have to use "fa" and "fe" appropriate to the new numbering to rearrange the terms, but all of the options listed above are still possible. There is some question whether a conversion 'means the same thing', though, because the other things you can do to a converted predicate have different meanings: "le citka" is different from "le se citka" in a later back reference to the above sentence relationship. There is some question whether "le nu citka" and "le nu se citka" have the same meaning, with or without the x1 and x2 filled in. Again, they abstract the same realtionship, and the resulting 'event' being described is the same event. But we would often construe different meaning to the use of one over the other. lojbab@grebyn.com