From cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Tue Oct 15 16:56:28 1991 Return-Path: Date: Tue Oct 15 16:56:28 1991 Message-Id: <9110152000.AA23342@relay1.UU.NET> Reply-To: "61510::GILSON" Sender: Lojban list From: "61510::GILSON" Subject: Place structures -- more curiosity X-To: lojban To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO A few days ago I wrote: >John Cowan >writes: >> ... There are many sets >>of words in the language which are contrasted precisely by the number of >>places metaphysically necessary for each: >> fasnu x1 happens (no actor) >> gasnu x1 does x2, x1 is the actor in event x2 >> zukte x1 does x2 for x3, x1 employs means x2 to end x3 >> fatci x1 is a fact (absolute) >> jetnu x1 is true under conditions x2 by standard x3 >> binxo x1 changes into x2 under conditions x3 (no actor) >> galfi event x1 changes x2 into x3 >> cenba x1 changes in property x2 by amount x3 >> under conditions x4 >> litru x1 travels route x2 by means x3 >> (no origin or destination) >> cliva x1 leaves x2 via route x3 by means x4 (no destination) >> klama x1 comes/goes to x2 from x3 via route x4 by means x5 >Seems to me that with "zo'e" and the fact that the last places can be eliminated >(if I remember the rules right) you really don't _need_ these nearly synonymous >gismu. >What, for example, is the distinction between "x1 cliva x2 x3 x4" and "x1 klama >zo'e x2 x3 x4"? or, (correct me if I have the "fa" type markers wrong) "x1 klama >fe x2 fi x3 fo x4"? > Bruce John Cowan responded: >mi pu cusku di'e: >> ... There are many sets >> of words in the language which are contrasted precisely by the number of >> places metaphysically necessary for each: >[examples omitted] >> litru x1 travels route x2 by means x3 >> (no origin or destination) >> cliva x1 leaves x2 via route x3 by means x4 (no destination) >> klama x1 comes/goes to x2 from x3 via route x4 by means x5 >> >la brus. gilsn. cusku di'e: >> Seems to me that with "zo'e" and the fact that the last places can be >> eliminated (if I remember the rules right) you really don't _need_ these >> nearly synonymous gismu. >> >> What, for example, is the distinction between "x1 cliva x2 x3 x4" and "x1 >> klama zo'e x2 x3 x4"? or, (correct me if I have the "fa" type markers wrong) >> "x1 klama fe x2 fi x3 fo x4"? >(You mean "x1 klama fi x2 x3 x4"; "fa" is for the first place and so >on in sequence, and after a single FA tag, following untagged places follow >in sequence.) >The difference is in what is or is not understood. The form > mi cliva le zdani >means "I leave the house", and does >not< necessarily imply that I am going >to anywhere. I may have no destination whatsoever. > mi klama zo'e le zdani >or equivalently > mi klama fi le zdani >mean that I go from the house to somewhere which is definite, but unspecified >by me. I am not telling you, or not bothering to tell you, where I am going; >either because it is obvious, or because it is not relevant (or perhaps because >I want to hide it.) This finds me wondering the answer to a question asked earlier by Major : >Are there any guidelines as to what "deserves" a place in a lojban >brivla? >Why for example are there places in 'coin/token' for 'denomination' >and 'issuer', but but 'material'? I would have thought it was just as >common to refer to 'gold coins' as 'australian coins'. >Major I don't recall ever seeing the answer to his/her question. (I am beginning to suspect Major is a she, because there seems to be only one name ever given and I've rarely ever seen that done except by a woman afraid of sexist attitudes on the part of others; but in the absence of any evidence more solid, I have to say "his/her.") Bruce