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Date: Fri Oct 25 19:56:48 1991
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From: cbmvax!uunet!MATH.UCLA.EDU!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!jimc
Subject:      Re: "Reversed Japanese" as a model for a conlang syntax?
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To: John Cowan <cowan@SNARK.THYRSUS.COM>,
        Eric Raymond <eric@SNARK.THYRSUS.COM>,
        Eric Tiedemann <est@SNARK.THYRSUS.COM>
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Fri,
              25 Oct 91 14:38:25 EDT." <9110251841.AA23647@julia.math.ucla.edu>
Status: RO
X-From-Space-Date: Fri Oct 25 19:56:48 1991
X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN

> Date:          Fri, 25 Oct 1991 14:38:25 EDT
> From:  "Mark E. Shoulson" <shoulson@CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU>
> Subject:       "Reversed Japanese" as a model for a conlang syntax?
>...
> As to your different ways of expressing "the house" when it existed only
> after the action was finished vs. only before vs. not necessarily ever etc.
> I seem to think that Loglan, or at least one of jimc's variants (nalgol?)
> had distinctions like that.  I get this from comments on an old story jimc
> wrote in Loglan.  Bob, jimc, can you enlighten us?

I don't remember the exact context, but in both Old Loglan and in
Lojban a tense on a sumti-tail (S-bridi) gives this flavor.  The Lojban
possibilities are much richer -- see selma'o <ZAhO>.  For example:

        le  mo'u    zdani cu po'ayfa'u      (spoja   farlu)
        the expired house    fell to pieces (explode fall)
            (from mulno; natural end of process)

        ko'a zbacfa         le  co'a zdani (zbasu    cfari)
        they began building the new  house (assemble initiate)
                                (from krasi; start of process)

        le  zdani be bamo'u             le nu ke'a  se zbasu
        the house after (completion of)       (its) assembly

        le  zdani be ba le nu ke'a  mo'u     se zbasu
        the house after       (its) complete assembly

The first two show off <ZAhO>; I hope their syntax is similar to
BAI-PU. But they don't really address your problem, which number 3
does.  I hope number 3 is syntactically valid.  Number 4 seems to fit
my prejudices better for how to represent this meaning.

In both cases, I'm not sure if ke'a has an officially defined
antecedent; I suppose one could use "ri" since no other sumti
intervenes.  In the -gua!spi equivalents (which are subordinate
clauses), "le zdani" would be replicated here automatically.

By the way, I didn't see the original posting; I assume it was on
conlang.

                -- jimc