From cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN Fri Dec 13 11:29:58 1991 Return-Path: Date: Fri Dec 13 11:29:58 1991 Message-Id: <9112131246.AB26587@relay1.UU.NET> Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!pucc.princeton.edu!c.f.jine.maildb Sender: Lojban list From: CJ FINE Subject: so'o te fanva X-To: Lojban list To: John Cowan , Ken Taylor Status: RO Some attempts at translation, and thoughts appendent thereto. ============================================================ I thought it might be interesting to translate a paper by my professor called 'The sources of conflict', but I got pretty well stumped by the first sentence, which included the phrase "comparative politics". What's politics? My general answer is "power and organisation kind-of social interactions" - "vlipa ja se ganzu nu jikca" - only in this context it will be a "go'i se tadni", which is quite a mouthful. I suspect that in most contexts "vlipa nu jikca" will do. On a (marginally) easier note, I started trying to translate a song of my own. I haven't finished - in fact I'm currently stuck on the last line of the first verse (of three), but I decided to post it to get some feedback, rather than pushing on to the bitter end alone. My lojban version, as far as I've got: denpa lo xamgu tcini .i denpa lomu'e snura fa lozu'o krasi .i denpa lemu'e la'acu'i klini viska .i noroi ba djuno ku'i .i sanli lo galtu krasi be lo skiji ve klama .i pensi ledu'u ma rinka .i e'u na'e denpa lomu'e bredi .isemu'iku noroi ba bredi The original: "On the Edge" Words & Music (c) Colin Fine 1990 Waiting till the time is right, Waiting till it's safe to go, Maybe waiting for a moment of clear sight, But you'll never know. You're stood on the top of a ski slope A-wondering how. But don't wait till you're ready, For you never will be ready, And the moment is now. (2 more verses to come) Note: partly because I am experimenting with the wonderful new (to me) sumti-1-less bridi, and partly because the 'you' of the English is a bit empty, I decided not to use an x1 throughout - this meant that I did not want to use 'ko' and settled on 'e'u'. Another, also unfinished composition - I had the idea of experimenting with colloquial dialogue. Hence: A: ju'icoi .ritcyd B: uema .i .ua .i coicu'i - klama ma - zarci - ua .i te vecnu ma - vrici - ua .i zukte ma ba - aicu'i .i le skina .auru'e - ma se jarco - ju'ocu'i - ua .i e'apei kansa - cu'i - ai kansa ni'o ju'i .ritcyd semu'ima do na'e jikca - lu semu'ima li'u .ue .o'onai .i semu'iku do mabla mi - ue .i cana go'i .uanai - ca la pudjed .i calenu do zutse co nenri le gusta .i caleti'enu do bacru ledu'u mi na'e jundi gunka There I will leave the two at present - maybe I'll continue to develop this. Intended translation: Hi, Richard! What? Oh, hi. Where you going? Shopping Oh. What for? Some stuff Oh. What are you doing afterwards? Dunno. I might go to the pictures. Oh. What's on? Dunno. Oh. Can I come? Up to you. Well I will. Look Richard, why are you being so sullen? Why? Because you foul-mouthed me! What? When? Yesterday. When you were sitting in the cafe. You said I was careless, so I heard. Notes: I take it that my 'observatives' are quite normal for 'klama' etc, but it seems to me that there is no reason why 'zarci' and 'vrici' need to be turned into arguments in that very laconic style. In answer to 'going where?', '(something) is a shop' is surely adequate. In these translations I have felt the need for a couple of constructions that as far as I know don't exist. Please tell me if they do: 1) Dialogue. I want a way to present a dialogue like this, with two (or more) participants, without having to 'lu ... li'u' everything. Is there a set of metalinguistic operators you can drop into a quoted text to switch between speakers like that? 2) Rhetorical. I wanted Richard to echo 'semu'ima' (why?), to express his feelings on it, without actually asking the question - and without having to 'lu ... li'u' it again. It's a bit like 'na'i', but negation is not what I want. 3) Topicalisation (This did not come up in the passages, but I thought about it when composing them, and thinking about translating Japanese). Japanese can mark nominal phrases ('sumti') as subject or object (often x1 and x2) but also has a very common device of marking a nominal as the topic, without specifying its syntactic function: Eki ga iya desu ne Station(s)-subj horrible is/are qu-tag "Stations are horrible, aren't they?" or "The station is horrible, isn't it?" Eki wa iya desu ne Station topic horrible is/are qu-tag "The station is horrible, isn't it?" (more literally, "As for the station, horrible, isn't it?") Eki o mimasu ka Station-obj see ? "Can you see a/the station" Eki wa mimasu ka Station-topic see ? "Can you see the station" ("As for the station, can you see it?") The obvious way to do this is with a BAU, meaning 'as for' or 'concerning in some unspecified way'. Do we have one? Kolin