Return-Path: Message-Id: <9112031336.AA21465@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Tue Dec 3 09:12:25 1991 Reply-To: And Rosta Sender: Lojban list From: And Rosta Subject: Re: Lojban attitudinals To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 29 Nov 91 09:56:21 PST.) <9111291756.AA16673@netcom.netcom.com Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Tue Dec 3 09:12:25 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Doug comments perspicaciously on lojban attitudinals: He reform ulates lojban cruel:kind as: > compassion/empathy - cruelty > pity/sympathy - uncaring > > Compassion and pity are very different attitudes, so they should be > differentiated carefully. This relates to my recent posting on the subject. I doubted the 'oppositionality' of cruel:kind, and found most of the other oppositions to be privative. Doug's reformulation more clearly makes the oppositions privative: presence/absence of cruelt (or mercy), and presence/absence of pity. Doug's suggestion is therefore in conformity with the majority of attitudinals. > Further additions: > confidence - insecurity (internal) > Compare with the list's: fear - security (external) This complements my suggestion that fear could be integrated with the hope attitudinals. Security, the present 'opposite' of fear, can, following Doug, be opposed to insecurity. > sorrow - unsorrow > In English happiness and sorrow are often > set as opposites, which is behaviorally untrue. > The list rather inexplicably does not include any > variant of sadness. I think we think of happy:sad not as a privative opposition but as a directional opposition modelled on up:down (high/low spirits, elated/ depressed). As Lojban would consider this malglico, it should presumably therefore prefer Doug's suggestion. > jaime vu - deja vu > Extremely common attitudes/experiences; > compare with the list's related familiarity/mystery What's jaime vu? > I would also change amusement/weariness to: > > amusement - gravity (seriousness) > > ...as a more accurate opposite. Or: levity - gravity and entertaining - tiresome > Lastly, I am somewhat confused by the presence of a number of "speech > actions": > permission - prohibition > request - negative request > suggestion - abandon suggest - warning > constraint - independence - challenge > > These all seem to be speech actions, making me wonder (A) why they are > in a list of attitudinals, and (B) why the classic speech action of > promise/oath is not there with them as well. And benediction & malediction/imprecation. > No doubt the answer lies in the intended use of the list in some way not > yet clear to me. The same goes for me too of course. --- And