Return-Path: Message-Id: <9112110403.AA06841@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Wed Dec 11 00:29:07 1991 Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: Why y? X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann In-Reply-To: And Rosta's message of Tue, 10 Dec 1991 18:07:39 +0000 Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Wed Dec 11 00:29:07 1991 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN And writes: >[My preferred coup is to make [@] the buffer vowel & dispense with >/y/ hyphens.] Yes, I recall you've mentioned that. I was wondering, though, what your proposal is regarding the morphological uses of "y". Remember, "y" is used not just to break up impermissable consonant clusters (where it could be replaced with the buffer), but also as something of morphological significance. For example, the classic "*diklujvo" problem. While your "?dikjvo" would be okay, were it not for the "kj" cluster which is impermissable by current Lojban rules, the earlier "*diklujvo" would not, despite its lack of impermissable clusters. If you recall, Bob (at Nora's prompting, I think) pointed out that "*diklujvo" fails the "*tosmabru" test: namely, there's no way to distinguish "*diklujvo" (brivla for regular-lujvo) from "di klujvo" (bridi: "Z is a cultural-lujvo"). This can be remedied simply, by using "dikylujvo", or by using a different form of the lujvo. Note that here the "y" serves a morphological purpose, preventing the "di" from falling off the beginning of the word, bridging the cluster. Would you forbid all *tosmabru-failing forms and just do away with the simple fix of adding a "y"? That's not so bad, but understand that you're doing it. Oh, what the hell, here's a nice keen problem word with your plan, and it even has meanings: "?bastrapli". I mark it with a ? because it *is* a legal Lojban word by current rules. It's a lujvo, with underlying tanru "basti tarmi pilno"=="replace-shape-use". Maybe describes using something to change something's shape? A poor lujvo, I'll grant. HOWEVER, if you forbid "y" hyphens, there'll be now way of determining "bastrapli" from "bastyrapli", which comes from "basti rapli"=="replace repeat". Noe that neither case requires a "y" for pronunciation reasons, only for the morphology. Note also that "bastyrapli" is the "fully expanded" form of the lujvo, the one you least want to make illegal, because it's the most recognizable. Well, And, I'm just giving you some food for thought. No good idea can get anywhere without some healthy resistance. ~mark