From cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN Thu Jan 23 14:49:50 1992 Return-Path: Message-Id: <9201231644.AA13288@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1992 10:40:08 EST Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: RO Well, I finally reached my goal, getting to Genesis 2:3. I edited all the stuff I did before, so you'll see lots of differences from the earlier version, if you still have it. I'm pretty sure this is all grammatical, but I'll have to check closely to make sure it's saying what I want it to say (all terminators where they belong, etc). You should note that I am a lousy translator, willing to sacrifice intelligibility for the impossible-to-obtain fidelity to the original. I have done hideous things to keep the word order more or less the same as the original has it, but I'm a little inconsistent here and there. Similarly, I like to stick to a particular term for each occurence of a term in the original. Since I already did the first few days, I'm going to post all of this but only talk about the last few days, leastways for now. I'll need to go over the earlier stuff, but I'll save that for another time. ------------- ni'oni'o ca lemu'e krasi ku finti fa la cevni le tsani .e le terdi .i le terdi cu na'e seltarmi je kunti .ijebo manku vi ga'u le condi .ije le pruxi be la cevni cu fulta ga'u loi djacu .i bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o gusni li'u .ijebo gusni .i zgana fa la cevni le gusni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu .i fedri'a fa la cevni fo le gusni ku ce le manku (ku) .i te cmene fa la cevni le gusni zo dinri gi'e te cmene le manku zo nicte .i vanci .i cerni .i pamei djedi ni'o bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o sligu ne'i loi djacu gi'e fendi fi lei djacu ku ce lei djacu (ku) li'u .ije zbasu fa la cevni le sligu .ijebo fedri'a fo lei djacu poi gapru le sligu ku'o ce lei djacu poi cnita le sligu .i zasti .i te cmene fa la cevni le sligu zo tsani .i vanci .i cerni .i remoi djedi ni'o bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o se jmaji fa lei djacu poi cnita le tsani fi pa stuzi .iseri'abo se viska .e'o fa lei sudytumla li'u .i zasti .i te cmene fa la cevni lei sudytumla zo terdi gi'e te cmene lei te jmaji be lei djacu zo xamsi .i zgana fa la cevni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu .i bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o ferti fa le terdi loi srasu je spati noi se tsiju loi tsiju ku'o .e loi grute tricu noi cupra loi grute noi lo tsiju be ra cu nenri ke'a ku'o ku'o zi'e pe vi le terdi li'u .i zasti .i cupra fa le terdi loi srasu je spati noi se tsiju loi jutsi tsiju ku'o .e loi tricu poi cupra loi grute noi lo tsiju be ra cu nenri ke'a ku'o ku'o zi'e ne ja'i lera jutsi .i zgana fa la cevni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu .i vanci .i cerni .i cimoi djedi ni'o bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o tergusni tu'i le tsani sligu .iseri'abo fendi .e'o fi le'e dinri ku ce le'e nicte .ije sinxa ce cabysni ce djesni ce nacysni .i ke'u.e'o tergusni tu'i le tsani sligu (fe) le terdi li'u .i zasti .i zbasu fa la cevni le re barda tergusni no'u le barda tergusni poi turni le'e dinri ku'o jo'u le cmalu tergusni poi turni le'e nicte ge'u .e loi tarci .i punji fa la cevni ra le tsani sligu semu'i lenu te gusni lo terdi kei .e lenu turni le'e dinri .e le'e nicte kei .e lenu fendi fi le gusni ku ce le manku .i zgana fa la cevni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu .i vanci .i cerni .i vomoi djedi ni'o bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o ferti fa lei djacu loi so'imei danlu noi jmive .e loi cipni poi voirli'u ga'u lei terdi tu'i le tsani sligu li'u .i finti fa la cevni lei barda xasydanlu .e piro loi jmive poi befydzu zi'epoi se ferti lei djacu (ku'o) zi'e ne ja'i lora jutsi ge'u .e piro loi se nalci cipni ne ja'i lori jutsi .i zgana fa la cevni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu .i cesto'edapma(?!?) ra fa la cevni secu'u lu ko seljbe je so'imei gi'e se culno lei djacu pe ne'i lei xamsi .ije .e'o loi cipni cu so'imei tu'i le terdi li'u .i vanci .i cerni .i mumoi djedi ni'o bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o krasi fa le terdi loi jmive ne ja'i lori jutsi zi'e no'u loi danlu ku joi loi befydzu ku joi loi terdi jmive ne ja'i lori jutsi li'u .i zasti .i zbasu fa la cevni loi terdi jmive ne ja'i lori jutsi ge'u .e loi danlu ne ja'i lori jutsi ge'u .e loi dertu befydzu ne ja'i lori jutsi .i zgana fa la cevni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu .i bacru fa la cevni lu .ai mi zbasu loi remna ne ta'i le se tarmi be mi .i ra turni ba'a.e'a loi xamsi finpe .e loi tsani cipni .e loi danlu .e piro loi terdi .e piro loi befydzu noi befydzu loi terdi li'u .i finti fa la cevni loi remna goi fo'a ne ta'i le tarmi be vo'a .i seri'a loza'i se tarmi le tarmi be la cevni cu finti fo'a (???) .i seri'a loza'i nakni ce fetsi cu finti fo'a (???) .i cesto'edapma(???!!) fo'a fa la cevni .ije cusku fi fo'a fa la cevni fe lu ko seljbe je so'imei gi'e se culno loi terdi gi'e jinga ri .i ko turni loi xamsi finpe .e loi tsani cipni .e piro loi danlu poi befydzu loi terdi li'u .i cusku fa la cevni lu ju'i do'u mi dunda fi do fe piro loi srasu noi se tsiju loi tsiju zi'enoi se stuzi lo sefta be piro loi terdi ku'o .e piro loi tricu poi stuzi loi tricu grute .i se ponse .e'o do mu'i lenu do citka .e'a do'a .i go'i lu'a piro loi terdi jmive .e piro loi tsani cipni .e piro loi befydzu be le terdi lu'u noi ke'a ponse lo jmive pruxi ku'o mu'i lenu citka .e'a do'a li'u .i zasti .i zgana fa la cevni roda poi ri zbasu ku'o fi'o se jinvi loza'i mutce xamgu .i vanci .i cerni .i xamoi djedi ni'oni'o mulno fa le tsani .ebo le terdi .e piro loi jenmi girzu pe ri .i mulri'a fa la cevni ca le zemoi djedi levo'a se gunka (?) noi vo'a zbasu .i cadysti fa la cevni ca le zemoi djedi piro leivo'a se gunka noi vo'a zbasu .i cesto'edapma (/?!/) fa la cevni le zemoi djedi gi'e cesri'a ri ki'u lenu ca ri cadysti piro lei se gunka poi la cevni cu finti je zbasu ---------------- Starting with Day 5 ni'o bacru fa la cevni lu .e'o ferti fa lei djacu loi so'imei danlu noi jmive .e loi cipni poi voirli'u ga'u lei terdi tu'i le tsani sligu li'u (new) uttered "god" "(command!) be-fertile the-mass-of water [producing] the-mass-of many-ish animals which-inc. live, and the-mass-of birds which-restrictively flyingly-travel above the-mass-of earth, assoc-with-site the sky-solid" Note the VSO order. That's what it is. I think I'm a little inconsistent with my le/lei/loi here. Note, though, that "animals" and "birds" here are singular in the Hebrew, thus massified. .i finti fa la cevni lei barda xasydanlu .e piro loi jmive poi befydzu zi'epoi se ferti lei djacu (ku'o) zi'e ne ja'i lora jutsi ge'u .e piro loi se nalci cipni ne ja'i lori jutsi Created "god" the-mass-of big-thing sea-animals and all-of the-mass-of living-things which-rest. belly-walk and-which-rest. are-the-result-of-the-fertility-of the-mass-of water and-inc.-assoc-with .i zasti Existing-thing My "and it was so". .i zbasu fa la cevni loi terdi jmive ne ja'i lori jutsi ge'u .e loi danlu ne ja'i lori jutsi ge'u .e loi dertu befydzu ne ja'i lori jutsi And made "god" mass-of earth-livers inc-assoc with-rule the last's species, and mass-of animals inc-assoc with-rule the last's species, and mass-of soil bellywalkers inc-assoc with-rule the last's species. Here, as above, the nouns are massified singulars, so we really are seeing "Mr. Beast" here (or more accurately "Ms. Beast", since "beast" is feminine). .i zgana fa la cevni fi'o se jinvi loza'i xamgu Observes "god" with-opinion state-of good. .i bacru fa la cevni lu .ai mi zbasu loi remna ne ta'i le se tarmi be mi Utters "god" "(intent!) I/we make mass-of humanity inc-assoc with-form the shape of me/us. Note that I have to attach the "ta'i" to "loi remna" (again, massified), otherwise it implies that it is la cevni who has the shape, which is not what the sentence is trying to say. similarly in the following verses. Note also that Lojban enables me to avoid the annoying point brought up by many that this verse is actually in plural in the Hebrew, "Let us make Man in our image". I left out part of this verse, because I couldn't translate it. It's really something like "Let's make Man in our image according to our likeness." Those two points are too close for me to do them justice in the translation. .i ra turni ba'a.e'a loi xamsi finpe .e loi tsani cipni .e loi danlu .e piro loi terdi .e piro loi befydzu noi befydzu loi terdi li'u Something-recent rules (I expect! permission!) mass-of sea fish and mass-of sky birds and mass-of animals and all-of mass-of earth and all-of mass-of bellywalkers which-inc bellywalk [on] mass-of earth" I put in the "ra", implied only by the third-person-plural form of the verb in Hebrew, because otherwise the assignment of x1 to "mi" is too reasonable. I didn't put in a tense, I think the UI's handle that ok, but maybe one would go well. The redundant bellywalking is found in the original. .i finti fa la cevni loi remna goi fo'a ne ta'i le tarmi be vo'a Invents "god" mass-of humans (=x6) inc-assoc with-form the-shape of x1("god") I decided to assign a KOhA because I use them a lot in the next two verses. Well, twice anyway, and that seems enough, especially since I wouldn't feel right restating the sumti and would resort to "ri/ra" or something. I use "fo'a" because this is of minor importance and temporary and I expect that "ko'a" will be more useful for more permanent things. I imagine any Bible would keep God as "ko'a" most of the time. Finally remembered the existence of "vo'a", thankfully. I am fond of using afterthought possessives (as oppoed to"le vo'a tarmi"), especially here where it's actually a place, and because in Hebrew the possessive is a declension affecting chiefly the end of the word also, or else another word afterwards. Besides, you can be so much more specific with "po/po'e/pe" if you use afterthought. Note also that I had to attach the "ta'i" to "loi remna" otherwise you get "'god' is-a-creator...with-form...", which again isn't what we want. Is there a better way to do this? .i seri'a loza'i se tarmi le tarmi be la cevni cu finti fo'a (???) With-result state-of: being-shaped-like the-shape-of "god", [something] invents x6 Another way of indicating "In the image of God [he] created him". The ellipsis is in the original and quite natural to my ear. .i seri'a loza'i nakni ce fetsi cu finti fo'a (???) With-result state-of: being-male unordered-set-with being-female [something] invents x6 Similar structure. "fo'a" hides the change from singular-masculine pronoun in last verse to plural pronoun in this one. Is this an okay rendering of "male and female [he] created them"? .i cesto'edapma(???!!) fo'a fa la cevni Holy-opposite-of-curses x6 "god" Again, that annoying "cesto'edapma" .ije cusku fi fo'a fa la cevni fe lu ko seljbe je so'imei gi'e se culno loi terdi gi'e jinga ri And expresses [to] x6 "god" "you! give-birth-and-be-many and be-filler-of mass-of earth and conquer the-last Again, inconsistent with my "loi terdi", I think. .i ko turni loi xamsi finpe .e loi tsani cipni .e piro loi danlu poi befydzu loi terdi li'u You! rule mass-of sea fish and mass-of sky birds and all-of mass-of animals which-rest. bellywalk [on] mass-of earth." .i cusku fa la cevni lu ju'i do'u mi dunda fi do fe piro loi srasu noi se tsiju loi tsiju zi'enoi se stuzi lo sefta be piro loi terdi ku'o .e piro loi tricu poi stuzi loi tricu grute Expresses "god" "attention! I give to you all-of mass-of grass which-inc is-beseeded-by mass-of seeds and-which-inc. has-site the surface of all-of mass-of earth (close-rel), and all-of mass-of trees which-rest. are-sites-of tree-fruit Use "ju'i do'u" for "hinei", something like "Behold!" (basically I view this as "Yo!") Should the last "poi" be a "noi"? probably not, but I suspect I have a few errors with that here and there in this translation. .i se ponse .e'o do mu'i lenu do citka .e'a do'a [Something] belongs-to (command!) you, motivated-by the-event: you eat (permission! generosity!) Deviated a little from the structure of the original for smoother Lojban, but not much. Sentence break is a little weird, but I think it's better this way. .i go'i lu'a piro loi terdi jmive .e piro loi tsani cipni .e piro loi befydzu be le terdi lu'u noi ke'a ponse lo jmive pruxi ku'o mu'i lenu citka .e'a do'a li'u Ditto the-members-of: all-of (mass-of earth-livers and all-of mass-of sky birds and all-of mass-of bellywalkers-on-the-earth) which-inc.-are-such-that they(the members above) possess a living-thing spirit, (close-rel) motivated-by the-event: eaters (permission! generosity!)" The verb is absent here, so I think "go'i" works well. I wanted the relative clause, stated only once, to apply to all the critters named, so I had to find a way to sort of group all of them together. I think the lu'a/lu'u is right, tho maybe something else for "lu'a"? .i zasti Existing-thing .i zgana fa la cevni roda poi ri zbasu ku'o fi'o se jinvi loza'i mutce xamgu Observes "god" all-x1 which the-last makes (close-rel) with-opinion state-of: muchly good Expanded version of my usual. I probably could have just done "ro se zbasu", but felt like being more expansive. I believe "da" is not anaphorable, so "ri" has to refer to "la cevni". .i vanci .i cerni .i xamoi djedi Evening. Morning. Sixth day. The Hebrew has a definite article on the name of the day, something that's not there for the others, but I couldn't figure out how to put it there (or even what it means), so left it out. ni'oni'o mulno fa le tsani .ebo le terdi .e piro loi jenmi girzu pe ri (newnew) complete the sky-and-the earth and all-of mass-of army group restric.-assoc-with the-last Kinda dippy for "their hosts" or whatever, but the best I could come up with. I use ".ebo" to stick "le tsani" and "le terdi" together tighter than the next sumti, in the hopes that maybe "ri" could refer to both of them together. Maybe forget that and use "rajoiri" instead? .i mulri'a fa la cevni ca le zemoi djedi levo'a se gunka (?) noi vo'a zbasu Complete-makes "god" during the seventh day x1's("god"'s) thing-worked-on which-inc. x1("god") makes Again remembered "vo'a". Is it okay to use it inside a "noi" clause to refer to the x1 outside, or does that have to be flagged? "gunka" is likely the wrong gismu; doesn't fit the meaning well. Or maybe it does. The old "-ri'a" semi-dikyjvo formation comes in handy. .i cadysti fa la cevni ca le zemoi djedi piro leivo'a se gunka noi vo'a zbasu Idly-ceases "god" during the seventh day all-of mass-of x1's thing-worked-on which-inc x1 makes. Used "cadysti" for the verb which implies cessation and sort of rest. It's okay; maybe a tanru would be nicer. Why do I massify here? not sure. Can you "sisti le se gunka", or do you really need a "lenu gunka" or something (or tu'a le se gunka...)? .i cesto'edapma (/?!/) fa la cevni le zemoi djedi gi'e cesri'a ri ki'u lenu ca ri cadysti piro lei se gunka poi la cevni cu finti je zbasu Holy-opposite-of-curses "god" the seventh day and holy-makes the-last justified-by the-event: during the-last idly-ceases all-of the-mass-of that-worked-on which-rest. "god" invents-and-makes. Again that "blesses" lujvo. Should that be "poi" or "noi"? Is it okay to use "ri'a" in "cesria", or do I need a different causative? Well, I think I've rambled way plenty for now. More on this if/when I ever get a chance. ~mark o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o N2KOT Mark E. Shoulson: shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu