From cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN Thu Feb 13 09:57:04 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Thu, 13 Feb 92 09:57 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA05362; Thu, 13 Feb 92 09:48:44 EST Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA27216; Thu, 13 Feb 92 09:35:37 -0500 Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA22038; Thu, 13 Feb 92 08:47:45 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA23867; Thu, 13 Feb 92 07:22:19 EST Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (via uunet.UU.NET) by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA24954; Thu, 13 Feb 92 03:32:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9202130832.AA24954@relay2.UU.NET> Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 6259; Thu, 13 Feb 92 03:31:19 EST Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 0105; Thu, 13 Feb 92 03:29:47 EST Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1992 02:35:50 -0500 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: names translations X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: RO Mark writes: >And we here say "New Delhi", "The Dead Sea", etc, etc. Belgium isn't >the only place with two native names; what about lakes/rivers/oceans >that form borders between two countries with different languages? Those >certainly are local to both (or all). And as you say, what of the moon? >I fear the only way I see is the informal, patchwork, inconsistent >manner of naming found in current NLs. Open to new ideas, tho. My hypothesis is that names, and words you want to borrow for that matter, may be loan-translated iff the etymological components are semantically meaningful in some obvious way; i.e. the name is 'descriptive'. The name "The Dead Sea" describes a feature of the body of water. It is known, and not just locally, that this description applys in this way. Likewise the Great Salt Lake of Utah. New Delhi can be mix translated iff there exists a Delhi, which New Delhi is a rebuilding of. Mark's West Orange works, because (I believe) there is an East Orange, and maybe a couple of other Oranges nearby. Thus, if the group of them is called (as it might be) "The Oranges", then if the town to the west is West Orange, Lojban-translating the West is legit. New York does not have an Old York nearby to be contrasted, and the listener may not know of the one in England, and can't find it on a typical map showing New York (the map must be in Lojban of course, or this wouldn't be an issue). Meanwhile the locals will not recognize it in translation either - so nothing is gained. When in doubt, Lojbanize from the local name, not loan-translate, but there are rare cases where loan-translation is valid. Only my opinion lojbab