From cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Thu Feb 13 11:29:55 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Thu, 13 Feb 92 11:29 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA13516; Thu, 13 Feb 92 11:23:20 EST Received: from cunixf.cc.columbia.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA18819; Thu, 13 Feb 92 10:59:16 -0500 Received: from cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA20106; Thu, 13 Feb 92 10:58:50 EST Message-Id: <9202131558.AA20106@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 6828; Thu, 13 Feb 92 10:57:24 EST Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 2105; Thu, 13 Feb 92 10:56:25 EST Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1992 10:54:37 EST Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: names translations X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann In-Reply-To: Logical Language Group's message of Thu, 13 Feb 1992 02:35:50 -0500 Status: RO >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1992 02:35:50 -0500 >From: Logical Language Group >My hypothesis is that names, and words you want to borrow for that >matter, may be loan-translated iff the etymological components are >semantically meaningful in some obvious way; i.e. the name is >'descriptive'. The name "The Dead Sea" describes a feature of the body >of water. It is known, and not just locally, that this description >applys in this way. Likewise the Great Salt Lake of Utah. New Delhi >can be mix translated iff there exists a Delhi, which New Delhi is a >rebuilding of. Mark's West Orange works, because (I believe) there is >an East Orange, and maybe a couple of other Oranges nearby. Thus, if >the group of them is called (as it might be) "The Oranges", then if the >town to the west is West Orange, Lojban-translating the West is legit. Well, there certainly is an East Orange, and a South Orange, and an Orange (no North Orange). And they are collectively referred to as "The Oranges". But there is still a problem or two left to deal with. First off, on a purely grammatical point, how do we swing this? Translating a whole name, I can see. cmenifying a whole name, also. But half-translations bust the grammar. {la stici narju} (assuming "Orange" as color, which is wrong) is grammatical, as is {la .uest. .oranj.}. But {*la stici .oranj.} doesn't work. Maybe {la .oranj. poi stici}, but that's mighty long-winded, after all the name of the city is "West Orange", not "Orange, but the western one". The relative clause makes people think of something else. {la stic. oranj.} would be okay, but would confuse people thoroughly. Also, I should have said: in English, we use "The Dead Sea", an English phrase. But what is it a translation of? Not the Hebrew, ancient or modern. The local name translates to "The Salt Sea". Similarly, "The Reed Sea", not "Red Sea". Do we follow local usage? Probably, but this confuses non-locals (can't be helped), and runs into the question of *which* local usage, as elsewhere. ~mark (shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu)