From cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Tue Feb 18 17:31:30 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Tue, 18 Feb 92 17:31 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA19286; Tue, 18 Feb 92 17:09:51 EST Received: from cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (via [128.59.40.130]) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA06866; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:10:32 -0500 Received: from cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA27050; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:10:34 EST Message-Id: <9202182110.AA27050@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 1077; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:09:12 EST Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 9750; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:08:46 EST Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1992 15:59:00 EST Reply-To: "61510::GILSON" Sender: Lojban list From: "61510::GILSON" Subject: Post to wrong list? X-To: lojban To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO John Cowan posted this note to the newlang list. I think he probably intended to post it to the Lojban list. From: cbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com!cowan@uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan) Subject: Re: Specific meanings of words To: newlang@buphy.bu.edu (Newlang List) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 92 13:29:45 EST In-Reply-To: <9202171821.AA02170@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>; from "And Rosta" at Feb 17, 92 6:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] la .and. rost. cusku di'e > I'll illustrate my point using _botpi_, which is glossed 'bottle'. > Here is its English sense (roughly): > * made of glass > * form: cylindrical, with neck at one end sealed by cork or cap; no handle > * function: container; used for storage rather than preparation or serving > > Is this the Lojban sense also? Or is it just, say, "sealable container > for liquid"? At present, the most that can be said for sure is that a bottle must potentially have contents (se botpi) and be made from a material (te botpi). In other words, the place structures partly determine the sense: a predicate cannot have a sense which contradicts them. In a few cases, further disambiguation has been done: "verba" means "child, young person" -- not "offspring", which is expressed by other predicates. Beyond these few remarks, we simply do not know the senses of the words yet. The job of prescribing in full the senses of all 1400+ gismu -- to say nothing of the lujvo and le'avla to come -- is just too large for any one person or committee to accomplish. It's about at the limit of human ability to define even the place structures alone, and the effort requires intense concentration over a long period of time. The only mechanism with sufficient mental power to specify all the necessary senses is an ongoing community of speakers, the "lobypli" of JL's title. Therefore, the various language designers attempt to specify just enough to permit such a community to come into existence. In a halting and partial way, it has already done so. The fact that, say, Colin Fine, Mark Shoulson, Nick Nicholas, lojbab, and I all give much the same answers to the same (simple) questions is indicative of the community's existence. "laititi a'u" (Polynesian, 'we are young'). -- cowan@snark.thyrsus.com ...!uunet!cbmvax!snark!cowan e'osai ko sarji la lojban