From cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Tue Feb 18 17:31:34 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Tue, 18 Feb 92 17:31 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA19373; Tue, 18 Feb 92 17:10:09 EST Received: from cunixf.cc.columbia.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA14965; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:40:27 -0500 Received: from cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA07702; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:40:28 EST Message-Id: <9202182140.AA07702@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 1149; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:38:06 EST Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 0061; Tue, 18 Feb 92 16:36:32 EST Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1992 09:33:44 GMT+1200 Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!otago.ac.nz!cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu!chandley Sender: Lojban list From: Chris Handley Subject: names translations X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO This letter was originally intended for the list, but ended up with Mark instead. It may now be a little out of date. The task of name translation is fraught with problems. Why are we doing it in the first place? 1 To identify where we live. This implies that the auditor has at least some vague knowledge of the geography of the region in question. I can relate to someone who comes from New York or California, or even Manhattan or Sacramento, but telling _me_ you come from West Orange or Tombstone tells me very little. (Would it convey much to you if I said I live in Mosgiel or Papatowai?) 2 To set the scene for a story (novel incident etc) Much the same problems as above 3 To identify some place well known to both speaker and auditor - news broadcast, discussion of a geographical region etc. For 1 and 2, one can expect that the listener and speaker will share at least some common background. If one wishes to identify the place so that it ccan be located (I wish to visit you), then it -has= to be tha same as appears on a map (which could be in Lojban - a Russion map would not help me in Moscow) BUT it would need to be tied to local appearances of the name for identification of street signs etc. So ultimately it comes back to local usage which (to me) means try and preserve the sounds. For 3, a more literal translation may be appropriate. Some other observations - having come from a bilingual country. In South Africa, many of the modifiers in names (New, South etc, City, Town and so on) have been translated between Afrikaans and English (Cape Town - Kaastad). In general other parts of the names have not - Mossel Baai is Mossel Bay not Mussel Bay. In most other cases the spelling has been maintained but the word is pronounced by the rules of the language. Classic example George is pronounced as X@-ORX where the X represents the guttural Afrikaans 'g' a bit harder than the Scots 'ch' in 'loch'. The first time one encounters this in speech is very disturbing. Here in New Zealand, many Maori names have been retained, and some people even try and pronounce them correctly, but not all. I guess this does not actually shed any light on the subject at all, good luck to the one who can lick this problem. Chris Handley chandley@otago.ac.nz Dept of Computer Science Ph (+64) 3-479-8499 University of Otago Fax (+64) 3-479-8577 Dunedin, NZ