From cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN Fri Feb 7 16:29:30 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Fri, 7 Feb 92 16:29 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA17286; Fri, 7 Feb 92 13:15:40 EST Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA23940; Fri, 7 Feb 92 12:06:39 -0500 Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA28223; Fri, 7 Feb 92 11:07:03 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA28230; Fri, 7 Feb 92 10:32:56 EST Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (via uunet.UU.NET) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA20239; Fri, 7 Feb 92 09:46:56 -0500 Message-Id: <9202071446.AA20239@relay1.UU.NET> Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 5454; Fri, 07 Feb 92 09:45:49 EST Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 3484; Fri, 07 Feb 92 09:45:13 EST Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1992 09:44:17 EST Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: states/provinces/counties X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: Ivan A Derzhanski's message of Fri, 7 Feb 1992 10:48:30 GMT Status: RO >Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1992 10:48:30 GMT >From: Ivan A Derzhanski >la lojbab. cusku di'e >> Thus Nova Scotia would Lojbanize as "la novaskocias." and the US, if not >> "la mergu'e", as "la .iuNAItedsteits." >Or {la .iu.es.}, which is also readily understood. But which is an illegal cmene. You can't have pauses in mid-cmene unless they occur after consonants. Wouldn't something based on the Lojban names for the letters (.ubu sy.) be better? Trouble is, that's not valid either. Maybe something along the lines of {la .ubusys.} or some such? Why use English pronunciations for the letters? >> Lojban would not preserve "York" as "york", because the diphthong "yo" has >> no defined pronunciation. >So we end up with {la .iork.} and {la niu.iork.}. {.iork.} yes, {*niu.iork.} no, for the same reason. Maybe {niu,iork}, running them into one word. Also note that around these parts, the pronunciation {nu} is about as common as {niu}, if not more so. >You have my emphatic vote against translating names or parts of names. >That NY is called Nueva York in Spanish means that a Spanish speaker >will recognise {la cnino.iork} (or whatever) as NY. But it won't mean >anything to a Russian or Bulgarian lojbani, unless he knows English >and is aware that "new" means `{cnino}'. He will expect {la niu.iork.} I think I agree here. Would anyone here agree if I said that Jesus was born in the House of Bread (or Breadhouse or some such city-sounding name?) Didn't think so. But that's what Bethlehem means, place of bread. And how much are you going to translate? "York", going far enough back, comes from "place of boars", I am informed. Nobody would want to refer to N.Y. as "new boarplace" or something. >There are other problems, of course. Many places have more than one >"native" name. Would you make a cmene for Belgium from her French or >her Flemish name? (Just an example.) Hee. I can see Lojban writers having fun, writing with two names, one meaning "Belgium-viewed-as-a-French-speaking-country" and one meaning "Belgium-viewed-as-a-Flemish-speaking-country". Make political leaflets a whole lot of fun... ~mark (shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu) P.S. eep, forgot that some people's mailers are bad. I just sent out a letter picking nits at Dave Cortesi signed just "co'omi'e mi". That was me, in case the mailer ate the header.