Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Wed, 5 Feb 92 13:00 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA18803; Wed, 5 Feb 92 12:35:57 EST Received: from cunixf.cc.columbia.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA26238; Wed, 5 Feb 92 12:28:38 -0500 Received: from cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA18872; Wed, 5 Feb 92 12:28:25 EST Message-Id: <9202051728.AA18872@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 2203; Wed, 05 Feb 92 12:26:38 EST Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 3416; Wed, 05 Feb 92 12:22:56 EST Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1992 11:57:32 -0500 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: bende - baseline change proposal request for comment X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO X-From-Space-Date: Wed Feb 5 13:00:15 1992 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN As I continue to work place structures into shape, there have been occassional new issues that have come up - places where we could clarify wording only after figuring out exactly how broad the concept we are expressing should extend. One place structure has remained unsettled after a bit of discussion, so I am putting it to the Lojban List for community input. The option of making this one change suggests a related change in another gismu keyword for clarity. I want opinions from those who have written in the language, but also, if possible from some of the lurkers who are less active contributors. The main issue concerns "bende", keyword orchestra. The word is one of a set of rather specialized words that remained gismu out of our tradition of minimizing changes to JCB's list (Bruce take note). Only the most egregious words of this type were dropped (billiards and football being the examples that come most to mind), so orchestra survived. The issue of the scope of these words was put off at the time - the words we retained had some considerable potential for metaphorical extension. Since then, as with the element words oft discussed, the acceptability of metaphorical extension into the figurative has decreased. Thus it is worth considering making the place structure more overtly expanded in meaning. Here is the current word. bende bed be'e orchestra 'band' x1 is an orchestra/band of players x2 conducted/led by x3 One obvious question is whether a band leader is necessary to have a band. Probably an orchestra does, but to the vast majority of music groups performing nowadays have a bandleader/conductor - no. The answer to this was that any music group without a leader is the obvious "zgike girzu" - it is only the addition of a leader that makes the concept enough interesting and different to warrant a gismu with a distinct place structure. The next suggestion is that the word be expanded in scope to cover all kinds of groups with leaders, organized for a specific purpose. This fills in neatly against girzu which has no leader, and bilni which is highly organized and has no leader. At this point we start having second thoughts about lidne, which as I announced last week has been modified to a more restricted sense: lidne x1 leads/precedes x2 in sequence x3 leaving other aspects of 'leader' to be carried by "ralju" x1 is chief/principal/leader among x2. This other sense can cover most instances of 'leader' adequately, but it seems an unnatural stretch by my language intuitions. The metaphorical relation between leader/follower chief/indian was missing. It can be expressed weakly in other gismu - jitro (control over), catni (authority over) turni (governs). Until bende came up, we were going to leave it lie. The suggested place structure to expand bende was written, basically adding an x4 covering the purpose for which the group was organized. bende bed be'e ? 'band' x1 is an team/gang/orchestra/band of persons x2 conducted/led by x3 organized for purpose x4 This seemed quite satisfying until we tried to deal with a keyword. We don't change keywords lightly - that is a baseline change. But 'orchestra' becomes too limited and misleading a keyword for the expanded concept. The original clue word used in the etymology was "band" but this is ruled out as a misleading keyword - there are too many meanings for 'band', some of which are covered by other gismu. I suggested "team", but this has similar conflicts with "gunma", another kind of 'team'. Gang has a pejorative and more limited sense to English speakers - I can't see people talking about going to see the music-gang play Beethoven. Athelstan last night proposed a novel, but more drastic solution. Switch the place structure around to put the leader up front, since this is the distinctive feature. Two possible place structures. The first is a simple rearrangement: bende bed be'e ? 'band' x1 conducts/leads team/gang/orchestra/band x2 composed of persons x3 organized for purpose x4 The second version then combines x2 and x3, on the assumption that individuals in the place would be the old x3, while a team/mass would be the x2: bende bed be'e ? 'band' x1 conducts/leads team/gang/orchestra/band/persons x2 organized for purpose x3 This latter place structure would be a mistake. The semantics of x2 would depend on nature of the value, and that value could be ambiguous as to whether it is to be considered an individual or a group - the old dichotomy related to sumti-raising reappears. (Is "le broda" individuals like "le prenu", or a mass like "le gunma" or a set like "le selcmima"?) But considering this place structure at all brought lidne to mind, since the old place structure for "lidne" was effectively just that "x1 leads x2 in doing x3". When place structure changes converge like that is suggests that there really is a gismu-level concept there. That concept is supported by the 4-place version still bende bed be'e ? 'band' x1 conducts/leads team/gang/orchestra/band x2 composed of persons x3 organized for purpose x4 x1 leads/conducts/manages organization x2 x1 leads follower(s) x3 so long as the followers are organized. If they are not organized, I suspect that "catni" or "jitro" or even "minde" may suffice. I'm still a little unsettled on the leader/follower question, but others may have some more insight. What do you-all think? The problem with either choice is still a keyword. Neither "orchestra" nor "band" can be considered if we rearrange the place structure. Athelstan favors "director", since "leader" is still the keyword for "lidne". However, at this point, he suggested that in the context of whatever change we make to "bende", changing the keyword of "lidne" to "precede" would be a good idea since it would minimize misuse. That baseline change proposal is therefore also put up for comment and likely adoption. Thus - summarizing the questions: 1. Should "lidne" be changed to keyword "precede"? 2. Should "bende" be generalized beyond musical groups? 3. Should "bende" be rearranged to put the leader place in x1? 4. What should the keyword be if only 2 is adopted? 5. What should the keyword be if both 2 and 3 are adopted? 6. For those who have written texts in the language, have you made any usage of bende that would suggest a constraint on the decisions? Would any of these changes be helpful/harmful in improving things that you might want to express? lojbab