From cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN Fri Mar 20 10:01:42 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Fri, 20 Mar 92 10:01 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA22278; Thu, 19 Mar 92 23:57:18 EST Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA11308; Thu, 19 Mar 92 22:46:44 -0500 Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA18285; Thu, 19 Mar 92 21:47:16 EST Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA19633; Thu, 19 Mar 92 21:40:42 EST Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA28820; Thu, 19 Mar 92 21:22:54 -0500 Message-Id: <9203200222.AA28820@relay1.UU.NET> Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.Princeton.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1928; Thu, 19 Mar 92 21:22:27 EST Received: by PUCC (Mailer R2.08 ptf012) id 5530; Thu, 19 Mar 92 21:22:11 EST Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1992 12:19:34 +1000 Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!mullian.ee.mu.oz.au!nsn Sender: Lojban list From: cbmvax!uunet!mullian.ee.mu.oz.au!nsn Subject: Jimbobs X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu X-Cc: nsn@ee.mu.oz.au To: John Cowan Status: RO The following very interesting exchange happened on conlang list: Date: 16 Mar 92 00:00:10 EST From: Don Harlow <72627.2647@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Reply to rgaskell Message-Id: <920316050009_72627.2647_DHJ44-1@CompuServe.COM> Bear with me for a moment. Much of the conlang discussion I've seen over thirty years -- this includes not only a month and a half of the conlang list, but also the Hardins' "International Language Review," various magazines published by proponents of various language projects, etc. -- makes me think of a group of would-be rock-climbers clustered at the foot of El Capitan, a 1000-meter sheer wall on the north side of Yosemite Valley, who are arguing among themselves about the proper technique for starting their climb to the top. Two or three have actually tried to start; a couple got three meters off the ground and then fell back, bruising their _glutei maximi_ (_gluteos maximos_, but I don't want to offend anybody by using an accusative ending) in the process, and one has actually attained the twenty meter level, is gritting his teeth in sheer determination, and glumly contemplates the 980 meters ahead of him. Meanwhile, the only thing the ones on the ground seem able to agree on is that the guy at twenty meters up bought his equipment at a fire sale and learned his climbing technique in a sandbox. They may be right; this is, after all, his first climb, too, just as it is theirs. One of them even shouts at him that if he had any consideration, he'd rapelle back to the ground and make way for some _competent_ climbers. (I should add that there's a gang of apes at the top who, every now and then when they see someone actually climbing, will kick a 100-kg rock down at him to try to knock him off. They own the top of the cliff, and don't want you to forget it. If you doubt this, read Ulrich Lins's _La dan Subject: Re: Reply to rgaskell In-Reply-To: Your message of "16 Mar 92 00:00:10 EST." Date: Mon, 16 Mar 92 16:08:46 +1000 From: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU Don, a very good response there. Just a couple of clarifications. [...] Not everyone is going rock-climbing up the wall you talk about. Some see the apes abseiling down, for instance, and aren't that fussed. Sure, the apes tend to collide with eachother. but they do tend to cover a lot of ground. A few members of the El Zamenhofo climbing team, on the other hand (schismatics led by Il Silferissimo), and more than half the Lojbo Jimbobs (not to mention a fair few types clothed in elvish gear) aren't as fussed about the wall as the others. They've found a few relatively shallow pits, and are usually happy to jump in and out of them. The Jimbobs like somersaulting in their soft sandpit. The Silferistas go around performing home improvement operations on their somewhat deeper pit, taking advantage of the fact that their pit has been boot camp for the Zamenhofos for a long time. Some of the stones hurled by the apes have landed in this pit; some even think that lends the pit atmosphere. I don't know how valid the analogy is; as for me, I receive mail at both pits, and am usually not that distressed about the niches the mainstream Zamenhofos, yonder-ways, are carving into the face of the wall with their penknives. Ugh. I don't do this analogy thing as well as you, Don :) In any case; it is not true that all the subscribers of conlang eat, drink, and sleep the wall. Me, I'm finding my sandpit a lot of fun. So does Ivan derJimbob, Mark Joulsonbob, and Colin Jinebob. Bob LeJimbob doesn't hang around our particular sandpit these days, but he isn't really at the wall you're at, either. He's found himself a 500m wall, and he's got rungs, but he's still waiting for the hammers. As to whether your shouted instruction, from your wall across the sandpits to his, will help him (and those in the sandpit), time will tell. (That and, as you say, the skeleton of the "Schleyer ist Herrgot" team-member you passed by in 1895). I really should lay offa them drugs. Apologies to anyone who has felt offended by this very confused analogy. Nick. Message-Id: From: cbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com!cowan@uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan) Subject: Re: Jimbobs Date: Wed, 18 Mar 92 10:10:10 EST Nickbob writes: > Me, I'm finding my sandpit a lot of fun. So does Ivan derJimbob, > Mark Joulsonbob, and Colin Jinebob. Bob LeJimbob doesn't hang around our > particular sandpit these days, but he isn't really at the wall you're at, > either. He's found himself a 500m wall, and he's got rungs, but he's still > waiting for the hammers. John McJohnbob, who always seems (inexplicably) to get left out of these lists, is squatting in the bottom of the sandpit, feverishly re-reading his three-foot shelf of climbing documentation (poorly bound, unindexed, and typeset entirely in monospaced Flyspeck 3). In the other hand, he holds a much-marked-up list of needed equipment. "Let's see: rope, hammers, pitons, crampons, tampons, clamp-ons, spit, chewing gum....", he mutters. And then we mustn't forget Carter Jimbob, who sits at the side of the pit with his back to the rest of the Jimbobs (he does look over his shoulder occasionally). He is engaged in digging out a small but deep excavation with his bare hands, and is sometimes heard to wonder why he can't seem to keep the sand from falling back in so fast. Next to him are Bruce Jilsonbob and his merry men, who are doing the same with their larger but much shallower hole. The sand is falling back into their hole as well, but they are digging so fast they haven't really noticed yet. There is a rumor among the Jimbobs that somewhere in the pit, or perhaps in a different pit of the same size and shape (this question being hotly debated among the Jimbobs) there still exists the legendary First Digger, Jimbrownbob. But whereas the First Digger was formerly notorious for the volume of his voice, audible at every part of the pit, those who claim to have spoken with him in recent years say that he has become much subdued and hard to hear, and even (in one of his rare public appearances) completely inaudible. (The title of "First Digger" signifies only that in meetings of the Jimbobs, he digs first.) And so on.... Message-Id: <199203190705.AA21552@munagin.ee.mu.OZ.AU> To: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan) Subject: Re: Jimbobs Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 17:05:55 +1000 From: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU John McJohnbob writes: (btw, John, why the "Mc"?) .Nickbob writes: .> Me, I'm finding my sandpit a lot of fun. So does Ivan derJimbob, .> Mark Joulsonbob, and Colin Jinebob. Bob LeJimbob doesn't hang around our .> particular sandpit these days, but he isn't really at the wall you're at, .> either. He's found himself a 500m wall, and he's got rungs, but he's still .> waiting for the hammers. .John McJohnbob, who always seems (inexplicably) to get left out of these .lists Yeah, it *is* strange that I keep doing this, isn't it? Hm. If the conlang- istanis will pardon the Lojban politics, part of the reason is that you seem to be the only person around writing up shopping lists for climbing equipment (and toy shovels). In that respect, you are, I daresay, a tad above the sandpit. After all, when I tell Mum all the great friends I made at kindergarten today, the Teacher doesn't spring to mind, any more than does the School Principal. Perhaps he should. Especially as Teach is no stranger to the sandpit games, the latest of which involved Beowulf :) My hats off, though, for a brilliant sandpit tale, which deserves to get into a JL or three. Nick, splashing sand far and wide, currently running a game in which a circle of people pour the same cupful of sand into eachother's hands (the phone game). Message-Id: From: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com (John Cowan) Subject: Re: Jimbobs Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 10:16:33 EST > John McJohnbob writes: > (btw, John, why the "Mc"?) Is simple. "Cowan" is an Irish name, "Mac Eoin", where "Eoin" (pronounced roughly "Owen") is the earlier Irish form of "John". So I am John, son of John. > .Nickbob writes: Actually, I'm not crazy about this; do you have a better name for yourself? > After all, when I tell Mum all the great friends I made at kindergarten > today, the Teacher doesn't spring to mind, any more than does the School > Principal. Perhaps he should. Especially as Teach is no stranger to the > sandpit games, the latest of which involved Beowulf :) That's what >you< say. When my four-year-old daughter actually >went< to kindergarten, the first friend she mentioned >was< the teacher. (I should mention that this is one-a-dem progressive places wherein Teach is known as "Julie" instead of "Ms. Kirkpatrick." > My hats off, though, for a brilliant sandpit tale, which deserves to get into > a JL or three. Thanks. ---- If anyone else wants to continue this currazy wacky stream, hey, I won't stop them... :) Nick. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nick Nicholas, Melbourne Uni, Australia. nsn@{munagin.ee|mundil.cs}.mu.oz.au "Despite millions of dollars of research, death continues to be this nation's number one killer" - Henry Gibson, Kentucky Fried Movie _______________________________________________________________________________