Return-Path: Message-Id: <9205202247.AA14682@relay1.UU.NET> Date: Wed May 20 20:15:45 1992 Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!otago.ac.nz!chandley Sender: Lojban list From: Chris Handley Subject: Re: further response to Edmund Grimley-Evans X-To: LOJBAN%CUVMA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Wed May 20 20:15:45 1992 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Lojbab writes: >Now the fact that Esperanto norms are NOT determined by native-born >speakers is therefore precisely why such linguists do not consider >Esperanto a true language yet, as opposed to a creole (which is precisely >an amalgamated language spoken by adults of differing native language >backgrounds for mutual communication). There are some linguists, but very >few, who study creoles, and the creolization process whereby a creole >spoken as the dominant tongue in a region becomes a true language because >that becomes the language that adults teach their children. These >linguists tend to study those processes, not the adult speaking norms, >which as I've said are not 'interesting' because they are likely to be >uninstinctive in nature and hence not reminiscent of pure linguistic >behavior. > My understanding of a creole is that it is (eventually) spoken by adults, but is created by children. A typical creole is created in a colonial situation, where (for one reason or another - typically the import of indentured labour) there is a small dominant unilingual class in charge of a large heterogeneous _polyglot_ under class. The adults communicate as best they can with the bosses and each other - the kids develop a creole which then becomes the language of the community. Grammars of all creoles show a remarjable similarity, the vocabulary is typically that of the ruling class - French fro Creole, English for pidgin. The only exception to the above scenario is Afrikaans, which was born in different circumstances, but is is still (probably) a creole. Chris Handley chandley@otago.ac.nz Dept of Computer Science Ph (+64) 3-479-8499 University of Otago Fax (+64) 3-479-8577 Dunedin, NZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Bet you 3 to 1 that fixing that bug will introduce three more"