From cbmvax!uunet!CUVMA.BITNET!LOJBAN Mon Jun 8 18:47:19 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Mon, 8 Jun 92 18:47 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA24786; Mon, 8 Jun 92 17:00:22 EDT Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA02587; Mon, 8 Jun 92 15:12:31 -0400 Message-Id: <9206081912.AA02587@relay1.UU.NET> Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.Princeton.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0650; Sun, 07 Jun 92 06:59:26 EDT Received: by PUCC (Mailer R2.08 ptf024) id 5042; Sun, 07 Jun 92 06:59:11 EDT Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1992 11:56:11 BST Reply-To: Ivan A Derzhanski Sender: Lojban list From: Ivan A Derzhanski Subject: a textual present from Tuesday night. Improvements sought. To: John Cowan , Eric Raymond , Eric Tiedemann In-Reply-To: Logical Language Group's message of Wed, 20 May 1992 16:56:23 -0400 <906.9205211415@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Status: RO X-Status: > Date: Wed, 20 May 1992 16:56:23 -0400 > From: Logical Language Group It is my firm belief that the Alice books don't stand translation. They rely on _nonsense_, which, when translated, becomes _rubbish_. It is bad enough that the modern reader doesn't have the historical context which is necessary to get many if not most of the quips. Now the English word "knight" means two things. First, it is a piece in chess. Nothing {nobli} about it. Second, it is an honorary title. Nothing {xirma} about it. I have an acquaintance who is a KGOT, and I'm sure he wouldn't know a horse from a kangaroo. So {xirno'i} doesn't really sound right. (It is an excellent word for an upper- class huyhnhnm, on the other hand.) Anyone want to propose a full list of (1) titles of nobility, (2) chess pieces, and, while we're at it, (3) card ranks and suits? The chess knight, for instance, is called (lit.) {plipe} in German and {xirma} in Russian and Bulgarian. > <> What does {xekli'i} stand for here? I take it {gadidei} is Latin or something for `haddock'. The revolting Bulgarian translation I first read had simply {le kanla be le finpe}, and, as Colin will confirm, it ought to be enough. > le xirno'i noi firsku leka selfanza You lost "a little" from "looking a little vexed". By the way, "the Knight" is effectively the name of this character, so he ought to be called {la lab. xirnol.}, or {la xirnol.} for short. Even better, assign a KOhA to him and Alice in the beginning and don't repeat the names all the time. > le go'a cu cmene le tcita {le go'a}? Why not {ri}? > .i tcita fa je'abo <> {da'inai le tcita mela'e lu le je'a to'erci'o nanmu li'u} (Folks, {slabu} is {to'e cnino}, not {to'e citno}, right?) We have to be consistent, you know. the name of S is called L ... {L cmene le tcita be S} S is called L ............... {L cmene le S} the name of S is L .......... {le tcita be S mela'e L} or {L tcita S} S is L ...................... {S mela'e L} (_not_ {S du L}! - see marginnote 8 in _The Annotated Alice_) > ri selcme le salsanga {ri cmene le selsanga} > .o'ocu'iro'e {.o'onairo'e} would've been more to the point. > le selsanga cu mo I'd take that {cu} out. > <> Damn. That's the {N nuntse X Y} from {X zutse Y}, right? Where in the grammar does it say that this is the way {nunP} works (shifting P's arguments one place forward and freeing x1 for the event itself)? Anyway, I'd prefer {lu zutse le vorme li'u}. Ivan