Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jun 92 22:09 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA21903; Tue, 9 Jun 92 21:59:51 EDT Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA02011; Tue, 9 Jun 92 17:37:27 -0400 Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA23546; Tue, 9 Jun 92 16:54:32 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA27226; Tue, 9 Jun 92 16:40:39 EDT Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA00531; Tue, 9 Jun 92 15:55:51 -0400 Message-Id: <9206091955.AA00531@relay1.UU.NET> Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.Princeton.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2469; Tue, 09 Jun 92 15:34:23 EDT Received: by PUCC (Mailer R2.08 ptf024) id 8660; Tue, 09 Jun 92 15:34:09 EDT Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1992 15:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: More Wind from the North X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0122%OASIS.ICL.CO.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Fri, 5 Jun 1992 13:30:31 BST Status: RO X-Status: X-From-Space-Date: Tue Jun 9 22:09:58 1992 X-From-Space-Address: cbmvax!uunet!cuvma.bitnet!LOJBAN I've been giving some thought to this "jikau" business. Herein lieth some small part of the trouble: We have "kau" to flag "the point of interest" in a du'u abstraction used with {djuno} or the like (loosely speaking). But what should we attach it to, for indefinite situations? We have been using the indefinite form of whatever we're talking about in most cases, like {mi djuno ledu'u do co'ekau}=="I know what you are/do", and not the questioning form, {mi djuno ledu'u do mokau}, which would probably be something more like "What is it that I know about you?". So far, that make sense? Trouble is, in this situation, we're dealing with a connective, and I don't think there *is* an indefinite connective. So Nick used "jikau". And Ivan doesn't like it. And I'm none too keen on it myself. Would slapping an indefinite-connective cmavo on the barbie help? Maybe, but it seems like a band-aid. As Nick (?) said, the trouble comes from trying to cram 2nd-order logic into a 1st-order logical language. Can anything be done? ~mark