From cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.bitnet!LOJBAN Wed Jul 22 13:38:56 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Wed, 22 Jul 92 13:38 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA12593; Wed, 22 Jul 92 13:09:57 EDT Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA13026; Wed, 22 Jul 92 11:09:44 -0400 Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA19552; Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:49:48 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA28873; Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:48:11 EDT Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA24484; Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:14:44 -0400 Message-Id: <9207221414.AA24484@relay1.UU.NET> Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.Princeton.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0082; Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:14:10 EDT Received: by PUCC (Mailer R2.08 ptf034) id 6881; Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:13:30 EDT Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:07:03 BST Reply-To: CJ FINE Sender: Lojban list From: CJ FINE Subject: Re: new use for bi'u: marks new information X-To: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com X-Cc: Lojban list To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: ; from "John Cowan" at Jul 13, 92 4:36 pm Status: RO John Cowan: > > > I propose that bi'u, explained in JL as a forethought de-emphasizer of a > single word, be moved to selma'o UI and used as a "new information" flag. > One of the current problems with Lojban is that a speaker may refer to > someone as "le prenu", perhaps assigning a ko'a-series pro-sumti. Later > in the same or another speaker's remarks, the phrase "le prenu" appears > again. Is this the same or another? There's no way to be sure. > > All languages have ways of expressing this distinction. English uses > its articles ("A man went to the store. Later, the man..."); Russian uses > word order; Japanese, particles. Under this proposal, "le prenu" would > be taken to refer to the same person, whereas "lebi'u prenu" would signal > the introduction of a new person. Like all UI particles, "bi'u" would be > optional and would have no influence on the grammar; when attached to a > structure-opening cmavo such as "le", its influence would extend over the > whole structure "le prenu [ku]". > > Naturally, "bi'unai" would be available for explicitly tagging old information. > I like this (and think it partly meets my call for a topicaliser too). One place that it is particularly suitable is in introducing objects into narrative. As you say, in English we use "a" and "the" for this, but I do not believe that "lo" and "le" are appropriate translations (fi'onai tugni la nik .ia). I prefer to use "le" from the first occurrence of the specific individuals in the story, because they are specific - but what they are not is known, so "lebi'u prenu goi ko'a ..." followed later by "le ko'a zdani" would make sense to me. Of course, at the beginning of the story you would generally leave out the "bi'u". kolin