From cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.bitnet!LOJBAN Thu Jul 30 14:00:12 1992 Return-Path: Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19) id ; Thu, 30 Jul 92 14:00 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA26824; Thu, 30 Jul 92 11:59:20 EDT Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA19032; Thu, 30 Jul 92 11:43:09 -0400 Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA15169; Thu, 30 Jul 92 10:46:32 EDT Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91) id AA14864; Thu, 30 Jul 92 10:05:31 EDT Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AB11421; Thu, 30 Jul 92 09:17:40 -0400 Message-Id: <9207301317.AB11421@relay1.UU.NET> Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.Princeton.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8041; Thu, 30 Jul 92 09:16:57 EDT Received: by PUCC (Mailer R2.08 ptf037) id 7380; Thu, 30 Jul 92 09:15:30 EDT Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:12:11 BST Reply-To: CJ FINE Sender: Lojban list From: CJ FINE Subject: Re: no subject heading X-To: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK X-Cc: Lojban list To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: ; from "I.Alexander.bra0122@UK.CO.ICL.OASIS" at Jul 29, 92 1:20 pm Status: RO Iain, I think you are right that NU is often similar in meaning to JAIBAI phrases; but I think you overstating the degree of synonymity. Much depends on the particualr NU. This is easier to see if you turn your JAIBAI round thus: le jaila'u ciska be faimi cu barda = (1) da voi mi ciska la'u ke'a cu barda (incidentally, I am not convinced that "barda" is a suitable selbri here. I suspect that so'imei is better). and similarly (2) da voi le xamsi cu blanu sekai ke'a cu carmi (3) da voi mi cilre la lojban. pe'u ke'a cu nandu which you are claiming are effectively synonymous with (4) le ni mi ciska cu barda (5) le ka le xamsi cu blanu kei cu carmi (6) le pu'u mi cilre la lojban. cu nandu respectively. I belive that there is an abstract semantic difference in that "ke'a", and hence "da", is one of the objects related by the description-selbri. Thus the selbri in the description in (1) is x1 ciska x2 x3 la'u x4 x1 writes x2 on x3 in quantity x4 whereas the inner bridi in (4) uses the different selbri x1 ciska x2 x3 x1 writes x2 on x3, and then extracts from the whole bridi a property which is not there as a terbri. Now I accept that in many cases - and I think "ni"/"la'u" is one of them - the effect of this difference is slight to null. (My English for the selbri in (1) suggests that it is the quantity of se ciska that is of interest rather than the quantity of nu ciska, but I think this is just an artifact of translation). I also think that "pu'u"/"pu'e" is very close. But I think the difference is greater in the case of "sekai"/"ka", and greater still for "nu"/"fau", and it lies in the fact that the BAI sumti, being part of the relationship expressed by the bridi, is (or may be) more incidental or partial than the LENU abstraction. Thus for me, several things could answer "le xamsi cu blanu sekai ma" that would not fit "ma ka le xamsi cu blanu", for example "loka crino". Your interpretation of "fau" would require it to mean "constituting the event that", which is not how I have ever interpreted it, and nor, apparently, do Bob or John. > I accept that some of these may have acquired > alternative connotations through usage or other precedent, > although the case for "fau" in that regard doesn't sound > particularly strong to me at the moment. Bob's example > > mi ciska cusku fi do fau lenu mi pensi ledo se cusku > > seems to be crying out for a nice simple "ca", "mu'i", > or "seja'e". If you really want that sort of vagueness, > I think there are other ways of doing it, such as > "fi'o se kansa". > > Similarly John's > > fau le nu fagri kei ko porpygau le glaci > > sounds like he really means "ca le nu fagri", or possibly > "co'a le nu fagri", with a "da'i" if you want to emphasise > the hypothetical nature of the event. > I agree that a "da'i" would be appropriate here. But I think there is a real need for "fau" in this sense - "ca" is often tempting because of the English concessive "when", but is often not appropriate. kolin