Message-Id: <199207290115.AA25303@munagin.ee.mu.OZ.AU>
To: I.Alexander.bra0122@oasis.icl.co.uk
Subject: Re: Smooth non-Indo-European Clefting 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 11:15:50 +1000
From: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU
Content-Length: 2133
Lines: 55

>I couldn't quite make up my mind what you meant by
>"the transitivity of {gletu}".  I eventually decided
>you _did_ mean the grammatical interpretation of
>transitive ("taking a direct object"), in which case
>you would prefer "ko'a ce ko'e gletu" - is that right?

Yes, although having an x1 and x2 there is fair, if we elimi-
nate the implication that x1 is "doing something" to x2, which
I think muddles up things. A recurring problem with many gismu
is that they express a relation between an x1 and x2, which 
could however involve many other participants. {gletu} is one
such, and a {ko'a ce ko'e ce ko'i gletu} would be a handy
solution (this goes for many other gismu; {cripu}, {lasna} etc.)
I have brought this to lojbab's attention; he doesn't think
we can travel down such a road very far. If you'd like, I'll
dig up his objections.

Thanks for your comments on the tales; I did not do a careful
enough job in correcting them. I will eventually revise them
with your and Colin's comments in mind.

>ta'o what does "FAQ" stand for?  ta'onai

Frequently Asked Questions; a periodic posting, used to 
reduce traffic on such questions, found in most newsgroups
and mailing lists. lojlist does not yet have one.

>Your problem with "the causer" etc.:  "jaigaunai" sort of
>gets at the unclefted x2

VERY sorta

>but the only really specific
>construction I've managed to come up with is something
>horrible like "lonu rinka lenu bu'a zo'u le bu'a cu co'e".

Did I mention my {xe'e} suggestion? 
lenu .abu bu'a cu rinka lenu by. bu'e
.i .abu xe'e rinka lenu by. bu'e kei fai lenu .abu bu'a
.i by. xe'e se rinka lenu .abu bu'a kei fai lenu by bu'e

Lojban central is actually considering throwing this into
the language, though admittedly it will not be lojban's most
colloquial feature.

>And does this mean that if I want to say "I cause something"
>I have to use "tu'a mi rinka lenu co'e"?

As the language stands, yes. Using {-gau} is the way I usually
get out of that one: {mi ri'agau lenu co'e}. "I drop something"
(Esp:  mi faligas ion) - {tu'a mi rinka lenu da farlu} =
{tu'a mi falri'a da} = {mi falgau da}.

Regards,