Date: Wed, 8 Jul 92 03:24:57 -0400
From: cbmvax!uunet!grebyn.com!lojbab (Logical Language Group)
Message-Id: <9207080724.AA02580@daily.grebyn.com>
To: iad@COGSCI.ED.AC.UK
Subject: Re:  JL16 "lei lojbo"
Cc: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com
Status: RO

We had a lot of argument on cinse, and the resulting place structure about
to be posted is probably even more vague on that matter, as I recall
(Please look and see and comment when it is available!)  It was argued
people might want to indicate sexual roles rather than physical gender
(I think by Cowan) and hence that cinse must include thinks like
homosexuality, with some lujvo indicating biological gender.  What I hope
we end up with (don't have the list in hand right now) is something like
x1 exhibits sexuality characterized by property x2, where x2 might be
something like "le ka se trina loi nakni", or "le ka nakni [xadni]", etc.

JCB's original word was even more vague, with no clear understanding whether
it was to refer to gletu, flirting, sexual preference, or gender.  I am told
that he original did not have words like "gletu" in the language, having
self-censored the language as it was created, but that this was added in
response to Zwicky's and others' comments in the late 60s, but the concept
of cinse clearly is still evolving, made more complex because American
culture interprets so much of life in sexual terms, and hence attaches
such great range of meaning to what probably was original supposed to be
a fairly narrow concept (but which concept was never clearly defined by JCB).

BTW - the place structure of "me", like those of the cultural gismu, is
very akin to that of "srana"  x1 pertains to [sumti] in aspect x2.  The
application of "ta me mi" for that's mine I think is a parallel with the
published original usages:  "me la niu,iork. prenu" (is a New Yorker)
and "me la kraislr. karce" (is a Chrysler).  I personally consider me
constructs without some kind of tanru to suggest how they pertain to be
uncommunicative, just as "ta xriso" or "ta rusko" or "ta lojbo" is
similarly vague.  The whole point of "me" and the cultural gismu was to
make it easier to make tanru (and with the culture words) lujvo without
complex grammatical fiddling that defies Zipf's Law (which JCB, and still
as much us, consider a guiding design principle).

lojbab