From cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.bitnet!LOJBAN Mon Aug 17 13:36:50 1992
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Date: Mon Aug 17 13:36:50 1992
Message-Id: <9208171544.AA28133@relay1.UU.NET>
Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!oasis.icl.co.uk!I.Alexander.bra0122
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From: cbmvax!uunet!oasis.icl.co.uk!I.Alexander.bra0122
Subject:      RE: proposals regarding abstractors
X-To:         cowan <cowan@snark.thyrsus.com>
X-Cc:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: John Cowan <cowan@snark.thyrsus.com>
Status: RO

Sorry.  My brain just imploded *-)

> > But from the way I've seen {du'u} used, {le du'u broda}
> > must be the "(putative) fact", whereas {le se du'u broda}
> > is the text, the combination of words.  Does this make
> > {le du'u broda} the same as {la'e le se du'u broda}?

In between writing the above, and getting your reply,
I decided I must have got it 180 degrees wrong, and
that {le du'u broda} must be the *text*, and
{le se du'u broda} the "concept".

> I was a bit muddleheaded when I wrote this, but yes, your reading is
> correct.  However, "se du'u" will work in selbri contexts, whereas
> "la'e" is confined to sumti contexts.  The intent is to contrast the
> abstract proposition with the concrete realization of that proposition.
>
> > And what does this mean for {ko'a cusku lu broda li'u}?
>
> It is simply a fact of the language that the x2 place of cusku is a text.
> If the place structure sentence needs to be reworded to express this,
> so be it.

IF

the x2 place of {cusku} is a *text* (as you say, and
the latest gismu list confirms), as are {lu broda li'u}
and (as I said and you confirmed) {le se du'u broda},
whereas {le du'u broda} is a "statement" (I still don't
know any good word for this)

THEN

        ko'a cusku lu broda li'u
and
        ko'a cusku le se du'u broda

are sensible, but not

        *ko'a cusku le du'u broda

which is what I recall seeing (and using myself),

AND ALSO

        ko'a djuno le du'u broda
        ko'a jinvi le du'u broda

etc., which I also recall seeing (and using), are OK.

BUT

The latest gismu list says that the x2 of {cusku} is
"du'u/text/lu'e concept", i.e. {le du'u broda} is a text.
All the other words with a {du'u} place don't have such
alternatives, but appear to make more sense with a "concept"
rather than a "text".

There's definitely something going on here which I
don't understand.