From cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.bitnet!LOJBAN Fri Aug 28 13:41:58 1992 Return-Path: Date: Fri Aug 28 13:41:58 1992 Message-Id: <9208281430.AA02288@relay1.UU.NET> Reply-To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: le la vei,on ckafyzda srinuntroci xipa X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: VILVA%VIIKKI21.HELSINKI.FI@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:26:21 -0500 Status: RO Way to go on the first crack at the ckafyzda, Veijo! Looking good. Some comments, as I try reading it: >Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:26:21 -0500 >From: VILVA%VIIKKI21.HELSINKI.FI@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu >ni'o zdani I might have thought {dinju} would be a better choice. {zdani} implies some sort of dwelling-place, and you're leading into this with these observatives as "A house. A coffee-house...", where habitation isn't implied. For that matter, is {ckafyzda} malglico? It expands to {ckafi zdani} == "coffee-ish nest/house/bivouac/dwelling-place". Most coffehouses aren't inhabited by anyone, they're solely places of business. {ckafyzarci} implies a more of a store where you buy coffee beans to me, so that's no better, and {ckafybriju} is right out. Aha! {ckafybarja}! That's really *much* better, I think. {barja} even has a place for what's served, which is filled, in the lujvo/tanru, by {ckafi} (though other things may be served as well). I think this is an important change to make, even if {ckafyzda} has acquired some sacredness. It's only a week or two old, and it's broken. Please let us switch to {ckafybarja}. >.i ckafyzda >.i mi zvati le vorstu gi'e terpanci loi ckafi da.uicai "I am-at the door-place [doorway] and am-a-smell-receptor-of [smell-emitted-by] mass-of coffee [smell being] x1" Whoa! Took me a long while to work out how that works. Sentence seems to be redundant, but somehow manages actually to sensibly bind {da}, making an existential claim at the same time. Confusing, but very clever, and rather uniquely lojbanic. >.i mi ca ze'upu.oi na'e sumne da I'm always a little fuzzy with tenses... "I now (a-long-time-interval past)"..? Oh, "it's now a long time that..." Hrrrm. I let John Cowan be the judge of that, if he gets a free moment. I believe, though, that {da} gets unbound between sentences (except at ijeks), so you should either have an {.ije} there or use some other sort of anaphora to get the smell. You could probably just ellipsize it entirely and get the meaning across fine. >.i mi dzukla le jbustu gi'e ctacarna Not sure what {ctacarna} really implies, but I get the gist. >.i rancindu jubme >.i vrici slada'i noi mi na djuno zo'e ke'a *sigh*. This is such a common mistake something should be done. A selbri can't take {noi}. You can't use it this way in an observative. Use {gi'e} or something. >.i ji'ipano zutse remna This is fine, but you should realize that it's not quite the same as the previous observatives. Observatives are sentences with selbri but no sumti (or at least no x1 sumti). The x1 is considered to be ellipsized, so "jubme" is "(something unspecified) is a table". This is a sumti with no selbri, since it's quantified, and would likely be interpreted as "about 10 sitting people (do/are something unspecified)", which to me has a slightly different meaning. >.i patxu loi ckafi lei mudri >.i vrici >.i mi visfacki fi pa lo poi loi remna na zutlamji ke'a ku'o jubme > goi ko'a Zow! That's good. >.i mi co'a zutlamji ko'a >.i ko'a lamji le nunjupca'u "event-of-cooking volume"? Maybe {jupkumfa}? It *is* a room, after all, isn't it? Not sure the {nun-} is necessary, but it's not badly placed. >.i le jukpa selviska gi'e jukfinti de.a'ucu'i This isn't quite grammatical. {le jukpa selviska} is a sumti, and you can't have a {gi'e} inside or after only sumti with no selbri. I take it you wanted {le jukpa cu selviska}? >.i mi pensi.a'e loi selpinxe ckafi.au Thinking about drunk coffee? Maybe. I might be thinking about {le nu pinxe loi ckafi} or {le nu ckafi pinxe} or something, but not likely about a mass of drunk-type coffee. >.i ckafypanci fi mi.ui >.i ckafypanci >.i .ui.o'u >.i zdani Neat ending. ~mark